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  1. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 11:12am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as skills go...everyone who knows him
    agree that GM Sin is exceptionally skilled, even his detractors. Did he fight in a professional arena? No. Was he given top honors in open competition according to the independent translation of his certificate. Yes.
    If he was going on charm and charisma alone, teaching a martial art, I really don't see how he could have the level of success he's had.
    Perhaps in other fields, it's possible...martial arts, don't think so.
  2. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 11:21am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys,
    I'd love to stay and keep playing, but it's Sunday, my only day off, and I've training to get back to. Fake, good luck. Sorry you've had such horrible experiences with CSC.
    Sam, nice talking with you.
    Tank out. Peace
  3. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 12:21pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    As far as skills go...everyone who knows him
    agree that GM Sin is exceptionally skilled, even his detractors. Did he fight in a professional arena? No. Was he given top honors in open competition according to the independent translation of his certificate. Yes.
    If he was going on charm and charisma alone, teaching a martial art, I really don't see how he could have the level of success he's had.
    Perhaps in other fields, it's possible...martial arts, don't think so.
    "Everyone knows" is not valid evidence. Let's see some video of him sparring, at lest, if there's nothing of him actually fighting. Plenty of 60+ judoka still spar, the same for Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Boxing, etc.

    Oh, and stop regurgitating "he's so successful" as if it has any meaning; it doesn't. It's only evidence of the fact that he successfully suckered people in to believing his BS. Charles Ponzi was "successful" by your standard as well, and even after he was exposed at being a liar, he had guys like you defending him. While The's lies certainly aren't the same as a Ponzi Scheme, the point is that human beings are easily tricked, and reluctant to admit when they discover they have been.

    Very few people have the character or testicular fortitude to admit when they've been duped. Most continue to make excuses or rationalize things well after it's become obvious to everyone else, in an attempt to save face on their own part.

    Because it's easier to be delusional, than embarrassed.
  4. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 12:34pm


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Still? Ok...I couldn't care less about your opinion. Have you studied with the man? No.
    I have.
    As far as testicular fortitude on admitting whether I've been duped...if I had been, I would be one of the loudest protestors on here. I don't give a rat's ass about saving face.
    I've trained with a lot of different teachers and styles over the past 40 years, and am more than qualified to make up my own mind on what I find useful for me.
    I sorta thought I'd made that painfully obvious.
    Now we've ended our conversation. Agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I have mine. Don't presume to judge me or my motivations.
  5. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 12:37pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Still? Ok...I couldn't care less about your opinion. Have you studied with the man? No.
    I have.
    As far as testicular fortitude on admitting whether I've been duped...if I had been, I would be one of the loudest protestors on here. I don't give a rat's ass about saving face.
    I've trained with a lot of different teachers and styles over the past 40 years, and am more than qualified to make up my own mind on what I find useful for me.
    I sorta thought I'd made that painfully obvious.
    Now we've ended our conversation. Agree to disagree. You have your opinion, I have mine. Don't presume to judge me or my motivations.
    Your personal opinion does not constitute evidence. My personal opinion does not constitute evidence.

    I am asking for you to provide actual evidence; all you provide is opinion, assertion, anecdote, and suggestion.

    We have provided, via court documents and The's own testimony, evidence that he lied about the origins of Shaolin Do.

    You've responded to this with little more than:

    a.) "Everyone knows he's skilled".

    and

    b.) "Look at how successful he is".

    Neither of which, again, constitute evidence.

    I will never "agree to disagree" with someone who is wrong. You are entitled to your own opinions, you're not entitled to your own facts.

    And we, here, are only concerned with the facts.
  6. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 12:49pm


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My facts based upon personal observation, over a 40 year period, comparing and contrasting with many different practitioners is that he is very highly skilled.
    These are my conclusions.
    You may conclude that because GM Sin has said he likes to tell stories that his training is fake, his students are fake, it is all kool-aid, whatever.
    In that conclusion you have made, I heartily disagree. Wishing it were so, and strongly arguing your conclusions do not make you right.
    If I thought for one second you were, then I would jump on the bandwagon.
    I happen to know, through hands on experience, personal anecdote, comparison and contrast...whatever you want to call it, that the man is an incredibly gifted martial artist.
    It has nothing to do with pride, or face...I am too old to give a **** about such foolishness.
    Most people would agree that Bruce Lee was an exceptional martial artist. Some think the best...but who did he fight? I've seen him move, and I've studied his training methods, and I like the way he thinks...so my opinion is he was probably pretty good.
    I've trained with Bill Wallace, and love the way he kicks, and his training methods. He was also a world champ...and so forth and so on.
  7. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 1:44pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    My facts based upon personal observation, over a 40 year period, comparing and contrasting with many different practitioners is that he is very highly skilled.

    ...etc.
    Those are not facts. Those are anecdotes and opinions, which are neither facts or evidence.

    • There are two hydrogen atoms in a water molecule
    • Bruce Lee died in 1973
    • Helio Gracie fought Masahiko Kimura in 1951, and lost


    These are facts. You keep making assertions. You keep stating opinions.

    Please provide some facts. You did graduate High School, did you not? I assume you've had at least one class on the Scientific Method, if not Basic Logic.
  8. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 3:15pm


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep, I'm a college graduate in Fire Protection Engineering.
    I've re-read the deposition again, from start to finish.
    Again, I saw that GM Sin admitted the sand burn story as a rumor, and that stories were fun to hear and tell.
    GM Sin's certificate states that he graduated from GM Ie's school with high honors, and that he was champion in open contests. So I would consider that a fact.
    He graduated with his 5th level, which is a 10th degree belt.
    Again, one has to believe the certificate to be genuine...and if so, then that's a fact.
    GM Sin developed loHaving been a former SD student myself, I can attest to the atmosphere and dedication of many of the instructors there. Many of my friends still practice SD and they are fine martial artists. The controversy and the problem that people have with SD is that they claim to teach, and use the name Shaolin. LTN is right in his statement that someone who stands out so much like SKTD would be a legend at Shaolin and be in the history books. If he accomplished what SD says that he did, then that would have been a major thing. I don't think that there is any monk out there that has ever learned all of the forms and techniques of the Temple. There are many Shaolin masters that are in the history books and others research of Shaolin for less than what SKTD supposedly did. Now if SKT had kept his Sin Kwang The Karate school like it says on the belt certificates or called it a Shaolin inspired system, then there probably wouldn't be a controversy. Anyway, that being said, people need to find a martial art that fits them and if they like and are comfortable with SD then fine. But on the same token SD should stop telling people that they teach tradaitional Shaolin Kung Fu and that the forms they are learning were taught at the Temple because they were not. This misleads people but then SD is not the only art that does this, there are others.wer curriculum material in order to provide a stepping stone for the US students. That's a fact, however, GM Sin did not invent the front kick, side kick, hook kick, roundhouse kick, etc., which are in those movements.
    Again, this is not a huge admission of guilt...we knew it back in the 70's.
    There is nothing in the document which states that GM Sin did not receive training in Shaolin Kung Fu. Quite the opposite. There is nothing stating that he did not study classical Shaolin Forms.
    What makes you an expert on the subject? What is your background, experiences, training, etc.?
  9. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/22/2012 7:21pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Funakoshi studied Shorin Ryu...So named by Chosin Chibana in 1933 in honor of the Shaolin roots. Shorin is Shaolin in Japanese. So whether Funakoshi chose to admit it or not, or purposefully changed the characters to make it more marketable to the Japanese, who at the time, didn't really care for anything Chinese, the fact remains, Shotokan has Shaolin roots.
    Thought I explained that earlier...
    Yes, GM Sin admits to embellishing stories.
    Okleedoke.
    Does that make him worthless and all his students kook-aid drinkers....Therein comes the insult. It's your conclusions that are offensive. I don't care if he likes to tell stories. I've trained with him, and many others, and he's fantastic.
    Is Shotokan a bullshit art because Funakoshi altered its origins by omission? Don't think so...
    You guys have your own brand of kool-aid going on.
    You are simply ignoring that Funakoshi agrees in his book that Chinese Boxing influenced Karate but that he was honest enough not to claim a lineage to the Shaolin temple which was unsupported by historical evidence. If Chibana associated his art with the Shaolin Temple it does not appear he had anything to support this beyond rumour and folklore which Funakoshi specifically refused to rely on in his book. If you have actual evidence that proves Funakoshi wrong and Chibana correct please introduce it here. Otherwise it appears you assume Chinese art automatically = Shaolin art which is untrue.
  10. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 7:35am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep...college grad actually, fire protection engineer.
    Thanks for the stupid, smart-ass comment. Are you a high-school grad? Or still in high school?
    As far as the, "we are only interested in the facts" comment you've made. Total horseshit.
    You take your facts...and then you deliver your conclusion/opinion.
    What is the point of these threads? How many years have you studied under GM Sin? The answer would be a fact.
    What is your training and background? Fact.
    What are your personal observations? Fact or fiction?
    Sam...the origins of Shotokan are somewhat tenuous, but most believe a tie to the Shaolin White Crane system from the Fujian province. I can do some detailed research, other than Funakoshi's book, it seems to be a common belief. Certain core elements definitely seem to provide a link. I guess you really have to be a history buff to care.
    No, I do not believe all Chinese arts are Shaolin.
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