Actually many Wing Chun martial artists now admit that their tie to the Shaolin Temple is mythical. For example see Yip Chun with Danny Conner, Wing Chun Martial Arts: Principles and Techniques (Samuel Weiser, York Beach Maine, 1993) pp. 18-23 Yip Chun is Yip Man's son, but he discusses how the best evidence shows that Wing Chun was developed along the waterways of South China by a group called "The Red Boat" who were entertainers.
Originally Posted by Listen Up
Bruce Lee never claimed that Jeet Kune Do was a product of the Shaolin temple.
The founder of Shotokan Karate deliberately changed the symbol of idiogram used for Karate so it read "Empty Hand", rather than "chinese hand" to make it more acceptable to the Japanese mainlanders he was teaching. So he did not promote the Shaolin Temple claim. I've never seen the Koreans claim that TKD is a Shaolin Art, and modern research indicates it original basis was Shotokan Karate. (TKD was created before the rediscovery of older Korean martial arts.)
I could go on, but the bottom line, is that your statement is so historically inaccurate to negate the point you are trying to make.
Secondly while you may like to be told historical bullshit, it negatively impacts people who would study Shaolin Do because they believe it to possess a direct lineage to the Shaolin Temple when there are CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) with a more reliable lineage that they could study instead.
Incidently when asked about his brother's assertion that E was actually their grandfather, Sin The's response was to act confused, not to say "no he meant he was figuratively our grandfather". So either Sin The is telling the truth, or his brother is telling the truth, but only Sin The is running around telling burnt baby stories, so it is my opinion that his brother is more credible on the basic facts of who their teacher actually was.
Shotokan claims its origins from Shaolin monks who travelled to Japan...later becoming Katate...from which the Korean arts descended. So....all began in the Shaolin Temple.
I hadn't heard about the new theory on the origins of Wing Chun. But does it matter? Is Wing Chun any less of an art or less viable as a system for close fighting? Nope.
As I stated earlier...the Chinese commonly refer to non-relatives as "Grandfather, or Elder Brother, or Sister", so what?
So it all comes to stories? From what I understand, exploits are commonly exaggerated, and retold. That's how legends are born. So what?
Is GM Sin an absolutely tremendous martial artist? Yowsir. Is he a phenomenal athlete and gifted teacher? You betcha. Does it matter whether you believe his brother over him? Nope.
I have trained under both...and when faced with the decision, chose to stay with GM Sin. There are those who went with Hsiang. The curriculum is identical until high levels of training have been achieved, and then each of the brothers specialties come into play.
The baby who was killed in the story is a story GM Sin heard when he was five. He grew up believing it. So what? You think that makes him or his art any less? NOPE.
As far as what I like to be told about martial arts...it's what is effective, inspirational, challenging, and leaves me wanting more. I have black belts in Shotokan, and TSD...and of course Shaolin Do. Shotokan is child's play comparatively, not that it's bad...just very external and linear, easy to grasp. Same for TSD....which is quite similar actually.
I think history is mostly bullshit about just about anything...dig deep enough and it all matters who's telling the story. Big fat soggy deal.
So much importance on fault finding...me, I look for the best and train with the best, I don't give a fig about who invented the roundhouse kick a thousand years ago. Personally, I think Superfoot took kicking to whole new heights...so for that reason, I go to his seminars, study his material and training methods. Guess what? I've got over 600 students, and none comes close to kicking as good as I can. Now, I have added spin kicks and jump kicks to that method, and use both legs...but in a thousand years or so, it'll probably be called Superfoot Do. Whoopidy doo.
I guess I am saying is take what works for you, then polish that apple till it shines. I have been a martial artist since I was eleven years old, and am constantly searching for new and better methods. Just today, I was experimenting with the Relax Into Stretch methods. I was really loving it... Getting into full side splits so easily...also the initial release of muscle tension felt great since I lift weights so much. I thought, wow! How cool is this? Tonight I had to take some Tylenol PMs because my whole body is sore! Weird! I thought it was effortless, but didn't take into account all the flexing of each muscle group before release. Oh well, an old dog can still learn new tricks.
I have met, trained with and sparred around with many traditional CMA's, and have never really found combat to be their strong suit...flow and circular moves, sure! Grace and balletic movements...absolutely! Not so much the fighting.
Shaolin Do is very hard style in the beginning and with fundamentals. There are some flowing circular forms introduced along the way...and after black belt, whatever you want. It really is like a university. Specialize however you want. The training is taught too quickly to become proficient without a great deal of personal study. Maybe people who didn't come up in the Lexington, KY, (go CATS!), area prior to the Sports Center explosion weren't taught proper fundamentals, without which it becomes almost impossible to grasp any advanced principles. That's all the forms are for guys....to teach a principle. Hopefully a combat principle and not ballet. I feel sorry for all the disgruntled folks who came up around the Soards...they were never what I would call accomplished martial artists. I guess this type of controversy is commonplace in the martial arts. I can't make anyone live my experiences, nor can I try to impart wisdom. My art is my interpretation of the collective of what I was taught, along with discoveries I've made with what works for me, and what I still strive to learn. If a mutant turtle showed up on my doorstep with secrets of the temple...I would still cautiously observe the way he trained and gauge him on his skills...no one has disputed GM Sin's abilities....the man is well into his sixties, and looks and moves like he is many decades younger. Damn if that ain't exactly what I'm looking for!
Sam, Shotokan Karate was founded in 1939 by the great Funakoshi. It is a distillation of Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu. Shorin Ryu is actually Japanese for Shaolin School.
Shorei Ryu claims origins to the Shoreiji Temple in southern China.
Shorin Ryu's founder, Chosin Chibana, named his style Shorin in honor of the Shaolin roots in 1933.
The Jeet Kune Do comment referred more to the usage of DO at the end of a Chinese based system, as far as Wing Chun's origins...no one is really sure. There are lots of theories. It is strikingly similar to Fujianese White Crane system....a Shaolin style. So more than likely, they share common roots.
So...seems like every martial art has its origins in the Shaolin Temple...
That was my point Sam.
So Funakoshi, who trained in two styles, both giving homage to the Shaolin Temples, changed the character to make it acceptable to the Japanes people for marketability purposes. He also adopted Judo style ranking. This is common knowledge, yet why aren't we bashing Funakoshi here and calling him fake?
By the way, Bruce Lee has always said that one of the major influences his style was Shaolin Gung Fu, (Kung Fu, Gong Fu...whatever. The term only means being good at something. Those damned Chinese! Not really caring about how precise words need to be for us Gwai Loh!)
Been following this thread and as a someone who respects history, I believe truth is important; even if you and your style are awesome. I don't think playing loose with history takes away martial ability and accomplishments but the flip side is that great accomplishments don't take away the disservice to the art of inaccurate stories. As time goes on, we screw up the history of tomorrow with fabrications today.
I don't disagree with that at all, however, history is constantly screwed up. Depends on who's recording it. GM Sin loves stories and legends. I love hearing him tell the stories. Does it change anything? No. This thread constantly implies, or says outright...that it's a "made up" art, and the practitioners are ****. Nothing could be further than the truth. Yet, if they write the history...well, you get the point. All martial arts are ridden with stories and tall tales, fables, whatever. It's the insane conclusions people draw from anything they can find to think, "see! I told you so!", that gets me. Really, just about every martial art probably stemmed from the Shaolin Temple at one point. Not all...but most likely the majority.
I guess my point is...who cares? Get caught up in the minutia and miss out on all the good. Or the old cant see the forrest for the tree, thing.
I personally love Shaolin Do and the variety to choose from. But with so much it is best to pick what you like, and dive into it. I get books and DVDs on everything. Each one gives me insight into all the details and principles. Shaolin Do encourages exploration. I just finished Wallace's kicking drills then did Wii golds gym cardio boxing, now I'm gonna go do Xbox kinect UFC Trainer. Then I'll work on some Shaolin Do Snake Pakua. It beats the hell out of sitting on the couch watching tv!
So exactly what has The' accomplished, other than building a commercial franchise upon myths and now apparently, lies?
Originally Posted by mike321
Who has he fought to demonstrate "ability"?
At the end of the day, this is all about fighting ability. Has Sin The ever beaten a legitimate challenger who sincerely wanted to kick his ass using, say, Judo? Kyokushin Karate? San SS? Muay Thai? Chinese Checkers?