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  1. CrackFox is offline
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    You have to work the look.

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 11:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is going to sound a bit pedantic, but I've seen his name written as The, The', and Thé. Which is the most correct?

    Also how would you write it phonetically? I would read The as simply "the", but Thé as "they".
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 11:45am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you look on the web it changes website to website, I have no clue. It changes in his book and manuals as well. Hell, I have seen it written as Te' or Te which makes more sense phonetically.

    That SKT would never had said those things if he were not under duress.
    This is the exact defense I thought of when I was reading the transcript. Yet, there are parts where there is no way you can backtrack form what was stated.

    That Rank stuff is my favorite.
  3. DaTedBear is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 11:50am


     Style: Traditional Mix

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like when he got pissy with the attorney that called him a fifth degree instead of fifth level? Ha!

    Although I have also seen it written various ways, SKT pronounced it "Tay".
  4. wanderingsoul is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/25/2012 9:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin-do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello everyone, its been a while since I posted and I hope that everyone is doing well. I read this article and I am trying to figure out whats the point. I see several "way to goes" "its about time" and " Oh I would love to see his face" What do you see that is so significant about this. To me it just seems like a lawsuit based on contractual obligations and testing fees. You comment on the lack of Historical information is the deposition, I would comment on the lack of a question asked about historical information, it would be irrellevent in this case. The only reference I see is his statement under oathe that he teaches forms based on Shaolin Kung Fu which is what he has said all along. I am not trying to defend the validity of Shaolin-Do, I just don't understand the "News Flash" of this article. Can you tell me what is so huge.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2012 9:20pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wanderingsoul View Post
    Hello everyone, its been a while since I posted and I hope that everyone is doing well. I read this article and I am trying to figure out whats the point. I see several "way to goes" "its about time" and " Oh I would love to see his face" What do you see that is so significant about this. To me it just seems like a lawsuit based on contractual obligations and testing fees.
    That's the basis of the article. Please read, not skim, the entire document.

    You comment on the lack of Historical information is the deposition, I would comment on the lack of a question asked about historical information, it would be irrellevent in this case.
    Historical? I see plenty of historical admissions concerning Shaolin-Do and its lineage. I see admissions about various forms and how many he actually knows.

    The only reference I see is his statement under oathe that he teaches forms based on Shaolin Kung Fu which is what he has said all along.
    Then you didn't read the deposition thoroughly. "Based on" means an interpretation which is not the same as direct lineage to Shaolin temple.
    I am not trying to defend the validity of Shaolin-Do,
    No, but you are skipping key admissions.
  6. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/25/2012 10:24pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please read the article again. Each admission is tied to a specific page number. Pre-deposition The' claimed he taught an art named Shaolin Do which he had been taught to him as Shaolin Do in Indonesia. That turned out to be untrue. Then he claimed that his material was from the Shaolin Temple through Grandmaster E. It turns out he made up many of the forms he variously implied or claimed were ancient. Finally he admitted that his brother was telling his students that their instructor was actually their grandfather indicating he did not tell the truth about Grandmaster E.

    I doubt you will accept this, but you should ask The' why a day or two after the deposition he suddenly settled his lawsuit. I would be very interested in what he would say on the record.
  7. wanderingsoul is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2012 9:38pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Browning View Post
    Please read the article again. Each admission is tied to a specific page number. Pre-deposition The' claimed he taught an art named Shaolin Do which he had been taught to him as Shaolin Do in Indonesia. That turned out to be untrue. Then he claimed that his material was from the Shaolin Temple through Grandmaster E. It turns out he made up many of the forms he variously implied or claimed were ancient. Finally he admitted that his brother was telling his students that their instructor was actually their grandfather indicating he did not tell the truth about Grandmaster E.

    I doubt you will accept this, but you should ask The' why a day or two after the deposition he suddenly settled his lawsuit. I would be very interested in what he would say on the record.
    I read the entire transcript, So I will repond to your points as you presented them. Sin Claimed to have learned Shaolin Kung Fu from Master Ie, I am assuming that you now say thats true,??? He changed the Name to Shaolin Do, OK big deal, He made up short forms/kata 1-30, and a few of the lower belt long forms, not a big surprise, thats why they are so different any other ShaolinDo material, He also claimed that the other parts of the material were original/classical Shaolin forms, His answers were confusing on exactly what percentage of which was what. As for the Ie grandfather issue, Haing says he was, Sin says He wasn't so that one still isnt cleared up.

    Finally as for the "Big Question" why did he settle? I would dare to say that each party comprimised and they found a mid point where both parties satisfied, thats why they call it a "SETTLEMENT" which is much different from dropping the complaint which you choose to believe happened.

    And after all that I say this WHO CARES, Who cares what he made up and what he didn't, who cares if and when he changed the name. who cares if Ie was his grandfather or not.

    What I and about 10,000 other practitioners care about is 1. Sin is a very nice man. 2. Shaolin Do is fun. 3. Its good exercise 4. It works ( As a Parole Officer I have used many of the Chin Na, self defense, and Street techniques in order to subdue combative subjects on many occastions) regardless of when or by whom it was created. So go ahead, "spread the word" conduct your witch hunt because in the end, most people have more important things to worry about.
  8. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2012 12:04am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wanderingsoul View Post
    I read the entire transcript, So I will repond to your points as you presented them. Sin Claimed to have learned Shaolin Kung Fu from Master Ie, I am assuming that you now say thats true,??? He changed the Name to Shaolin Do, OK big deal, He made up short forms/kata 1-30, and a few of the lower belt long forms, not a big surprise, thats why they are so different any other ShaolinDo material, He also claimed that the other parts of the material were original/classical Shaolin forms, His answers were confusing on exactly what percentage of which was what. As for the Ie grandfather issue, Haing says he was, Sin says He wasn't so that one still isnt cleared up.

    Finally as for the "Big Question" why did he settle? I would dare to say that each party comprimised and they found a mid point where both parties satisfied, thats why they call it a "SETTLEMENT" which is much different from dropping the complaint which you choose to believe happened.

    And after all that I say this WHO CARES, Who cares what he made up and what he didn't, who cares if and when he changed the name. who cares if Ie was his grandfather or not.

    What I and about 10,000 other practitioners care about is 1. Sin is a very nice man. 2. Shaolin Do is fun. 3. Its good exercise 4. It works ( As a Parole Officer I have used many of the Chin Na, self defense, and Street techniques in order to subdue combative subjects on many occastions) regardless of when or by whom it was created. So go ahead, "spread the word" conduct your witch hunt because in the end, most people have more important things to worry about.
    1) I do not know if Master Ie existed and was The's teacher as previously described by The'. Given that Sin The' admits his brother who was also a SD teacher says that they actually learned from their grandfather, I believe that there is substantial evidence that The' is not telling the full truth about his lineage.

    2) The transcript reveals that The' agrees that Shaolin Kung Fu is not synomous with Shaolin Do. Assuming that The' actually studied Shaolin Kung Fu in Indonesia, (and his art has a lot of trappings of Karate) then that damages his claim that he teaches an ancient art, as verses a synthesis art. There is no shame in teaching the latter, the problem is when you lay claim to the Shaolin Temple and you are really sharing something that is different.

    3) On the issue of the kata, see the attached Federal court decision from Tennessee where the Defendant indicated that The' told him the forms he was teaching were ancient and the record in this case, and in this earlier case often indicated otherwise. If a MA teacher tells me that it's an ancient form, as a student I would want him to tell me the truth, though you are free to disagree.

    4) The settlement happened literally several days after the deposition, and within a short time after The' lost his crucial motion for a preliminary injunction. The record indicates he did not recover any costs or legal fees from the defendant. Given his demands for an injunction, large monitary damages, and legal fees, it looks like The' chose to end his action immediately without achieving these goals. Of course if you would like to share a copy of their written Settlement Agreement I would be happy to reconsider this issue. Please call Mr. The' and ask him to provide you with this copy which you can post here.

    5) You don't have to care, but the documents from this case and the Tennessee one, provide a facinating look into the historic pedigree of another art that claims an immediate lineage to the Shaolin temple. As often happens, this lineage has been cast in doubt by The's own words.

    6) "Sin is a very nice man". Gerry Spence, whose work you may be familar with says that nice is a mannerism and not a character trait. Ethical compassionate people can be "nice", so can car salesman, and lawyers regardless of their alterior motivations and future planned actions. So I will simply observe that this personal observation means nothing to us outside the art.

    7) Nope, it wasn't a witch-hunt, full copies of all court documents that were used in the writeups were provided on this website including The's complete complaint and declaration which tell his side of this conflict. Besides there are no claims here on Bullshido that The' has anything to do with the Prince of Darkness. :)

    Take care
    Last edited by Sam Browning; 3/27/2012 12:20am at .
  9. dragonman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 10:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: shaolin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    master leonard has issued a statement on his website at sinthe.com about all of this
  10. DaTedBear is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 10:59am


     Style: Traditional Mix

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, I read that open letter. What he says about the early days and the students being told that SKT modified certain techniques to fit the Westerners so they could start small/slow is accurate. I remember being told that in 1970 by Leonard and some others (Fernandez, Johnson, Brown, Caudill). We were not told how extensive the "modified" techniques went into the curriculum.
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