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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 7:49am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Yep...college grad actually, fire protection engineer.
    Thanks for the stupid, smart-ass comment. Are you a high-school grad? Or still in high school?
    As far as the, "we are only interested in the facts" comment you've made. Total horseshit.
    You take your facts...and then you deliver your conclusion/opinion.
    What is the point of these threads? How many years have you studied under GM Sin? The answer would be a fact.
    What is your training and background? Fact.
    What are your personal observations? Fact or fiction?
    Sam...the origins of Shotokan are somewhat tenuous, but most believe a tie to the Shaolin White Crane system from the Fujian province. I can do some detailed research, other than Funakoshi's book, it seems to be a common belief. Certain core elements definitely seem to provide a link. I guess you really have to be a history buff to care.
    No, I do not believe all Chinese arts are Shaolin.
    "Fire Protection" apparently does not include a course on Critical Thinking. Observations are not facts; they are subjective interpretations easily influenced by bias and the limitations of human sensory error.

    If all you have are opinions, anecdotes, and "observations"; and if you had any integrity, you'd admit you have no facts. Either you misunderstand the definition of the word, or you lack the integrity to admit this. We're certainly not buying your attempts at spin and damage control on behalf of your lying "Master".

    Either The' has defeated legitimate challengers in limited/no rules fights, or he hasn't. Either The' has defeated opponents in full contact competitions, or he hasn't. Either The' has told the truth about the origin of Shaolin Do, or he hasn't.

    And when it comes to the latter, the facts are: he hasn't.

    You could post here 95 more times, and that fact will not change, no matter how much you try to assert "everyone knows The' is skilled", "look at how successful he is", or "but he's such a nice/good/charming/sexy/adorable/skilled guy".

    Because facts are facts, and opinions are generally worthless, especially coming from someone with a vested interest in ensuring he doesn't regret wasting... what is it? Decades? ...of his life practicing a Martial Art founded on bullshit.

    Fact.
  2. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 8:08am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Engineering is engineering...
    As I have stated: your conclusions are what are bullshit.
    Your facts do not negate GM Sin's training or skills, of which you have no first hand experience.
    Again, I haven't wasted decades...that is your opinion. Also Bullshit, and not factual.
    Again, I've studied many other styles, so I definitely am able to make a value decision on the validity of the training.
    All you are doing are stating your opinions...and then you try to mix in insults, without answering any questions yourself. Hypocritical Bullshit.
    GM Sin competed in open contests and listed as champion on his certificate.
    As far as professional bouts...that doesn't mean anything, as most martial artists do not fight professionally. So any conclusions drawn from that are purely conjecture on your part.
    You don't know him, you've never trained under him...so any conclusions you come to are your own spin...in other words, opinion.
    I've trained with him, I know him, so my opinions are based upon first hand experience. Yours are not.
    Now if you can't understand that, then you are either very inexperienced, or just plain old st
    I personally won 11 full contact fights, with no losses. Doesn't mean anything. It all depends on how much you put into it.
  3. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 8:59am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Yep...college grad actually, fire protection engineer.
    Thanks for the stupid, smart-ass comment. Are you a high-school grad? Or still in high school?
    As far as the, "we are only interested in the facts" comment you've made. Total horseshit.
    You take your facts...and then you deliver your conclusion/opinion.
    What is the point of these threads? How many years have you studied under GM Sin? The answer would be a fact.
    What is your training and background? Fact.
    What are your personal observations? Fact or fiction?
    Sam...the origins of Shotokan are somewhat tenuous, but most believe a tie to the Shaolin White Crane system from the Fujian province. I can do some detailed research, other than Funakoshi's book, it seems to be a common belief. Certain core elements definitely seem to provide a link. I guess you really have to be a history buff to care.
    No, I do not believe all Chinese arts are Shaolin.
    Okay, can you point to a single kata in Shotokan that was not created on Okinawa or later in Japan and instead was created in China. I think I know the answer to this question, but please enlighten me.
  4. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 9:19am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sanchin...although the Chinese do it a bit differently, similar principles. I agree is difficult to tie the katas to Chinese counterparts, although many believe they are there.
    It is common belief that a great deal of influence on Okinawa came from the Crane Fist.
    Do I know how much or how factual? I do not...
    Does it matter to me? Absolutely not.
    I believe Shotokan to be an effective, easy to grasp system. I'm a really big guy, and love to lift weights, so the external aspect has come easy for me.
    So yes, I don't think it's fake...no matter where it came from.
  5. Sam Browning is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2012 10:08pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sanchin appeared in Okinawa after it was brought back by Kanryo Higaonna who studied Chinese Boxing according to Patrick McCarthy in the late 1870s. While it appears that Higaonna studied in Fuzhou with either Ryuru Ko and/or Wai Xinxian.

    The problem (according to McCarthy) is we don't even know the name of the style taught in the Kojo school in Fuzhou. Some have speculated Higaonna brought back Whooping Crane Kung Fu but McCarthy describes his material as as a hybrid. (See The Bible of Karate Bubishi, translated with commentary by Patrick McCarthy, (Tuttle Publishing, 1995, p. 36-38) Sanchin exists in multiple forms of Chinese Kung Fu so saying which art it appeared in first, and that it came from the Shaolin Temple as verse another tradition is impossible barring new historical discoveries.*

    *Note* If Sin The' claims that Sanchin came from the Shaolin temple that is not a new historical discovery.

    This brings me back to my original point that your assertion that Shotokan comes from the Shaolin temple is erronous because this statement cannot be established by current historical knowledge.

    However the situation with Shaolin Do is even worse because Sin The has contradicted himself multiple times during a deposition when discussing the historical basis of his art which he asserted since the late 1970s came from the Shaolin Temple in China. Since Sin The admits he travelled around Indonesia studying with multiple masters, its likely that he's teaching a hybrid art with a heavy dose of Karate rather then a Shaolin Lineage. Certainly his current stories are inconsistant and unbelievable. *cough* burned baby, hairy master.
  6. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2012 7:07am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sam,
    According to everything I've read and heard, the Shaolin Temple was a martial arts university of sorts...with many different disciplines, and open to expanding the knowledge base. So, I guess you could say, a "hybrid". In fact, are there truly any martial arts that are not distillations, interpretations, etc., or in other words, a You asked about Shotokan...and it looks like it's been influenced, interpreted, mutated...from what? No one really knows exactly. So I guess it doesn't really matter. Whether Chibana named Shorin Ryu after Shaolin to honor it's roots, (you'd think he knew what he was doing...but if he were alive, he'd be on Bullshito). Since Funakoshi studied Shorin Ryu, and purposefully eliminated the Chinese influence, (perhaps due to the horrific Sino-Japanese relations at the time), he's lucky not to be on this site as well.
    GM Ie travelled extensively to study martial arts and add to his knowledge base, in keeping with the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. GM Sin did the same, in keeping with the tradition of his Master, and the tradition of the Shaolin Temple.
    So maybe you're right about the Hybrid, Sam.
    So the students of Shaolin Do have the opportunity to study from an incredibly vast knowledge base, in keeping with the tradition of the Shaolin Temple.
    That's fantastic! Thank you for your detailed research, it just goes to show that the Martial Arts are constantly adapting and evolving. I am even more motivated to learn, and train.
    Speaking of learning, I've read quite a bit of disconcerting information regarding this site.
    I am sorry I was duped into posting here. I see that I've been wasting my valuable time. In my defense, I felt bad for it is fake, and much like my former students, felt an obligation to give him a different perspective. I got caught up in the trap, and I apologize to any true martial artists for allowing my combative spirit to take over.
  7. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/24/2012 8:10am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Speaking of learning, I've read quite a bit of disconcerting information regarding this site.
    Sounds like mission accomplished then. Yes, we're all about disconcerting information, but many people can't handle being disillusioned.
  8. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2012 8:30am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Destroy,
    I couldn't agree with you more. It is Fake, sorry for losing my temper. Good luck with your training.
  9. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/24/2012 8:53am

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listen Up View Post
    Sam,
    According to everything I've read and heard, the Shaolin Temple was a martial arts university of sorts...
    Sorry to interject, and I realize this was quite a lengthy discussion...

    but no... any argument based on the Shaolin temple being a martial art superschool is historically inaccurate. There are quite a number of threads on this board debunking that particular myth. Yes, martial artists, bandits with excellent skills, fleeing generals, etc became monks to avoid persecution from the local gvt. The focus of the temple was never of martial arts. At least until the recent gvt. reconstruction.
    =================
    Kama Sutra blue belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

    Dipshit
  10. Listen Up is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/24/2012 9:51am


     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sri,
    There are so many myths and historical contradictions regarding the Shaolin Temple.
    I believe it went through many changes during it's evolution. Them you add the westerners' interpretation of Chinese culture...iffy at best.
    I believe a lot of what westerners call traditional Chinese Martial Arts probably were developed by the Tongs, or within families, passed down for generations. Maybe it's all just a huge hodgepodge...does that change anything? I don't think so.
    I believe that apparently there were large gatherings of many different martial artists from all walks of life residing at the monastery, and so ideas and principles were exchanged, modified, and developed. In this viewpoint, not unlike the modern day equivalent of a university, or academy.
    With so many historians arguing over this subject...some even saying the temples themselves are myths, and never existed...who really knows?
    I don't believe the modern incarnation, with the Wushu, bears any great resemblance to the reality...even though I admire the Wushu performances.
    It doesn't really matter.
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