Longer range riflery

**Jazzman** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 6:10pm

Originally Posted by Devil

Then why did you quote me as saying 10 inch groups at 1000?

And clearly 2 MOA with an A2 on a near windless day as a personal best is unachievable. Clearly.

Thanks for all the valuable insight, Mr. ILuvsavage. (Translation: Jazzman doesn't know how to run a lathe.)

Blaha blah bla. Because you're a raving bullshit artist that's why , because you were trolling like the punk you are and don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Because you're another jackass beating off with your M4/A4orgery and running your yap.

YUP I like the Savages , but if you weren't as freaking stupid as you are you'd have sussed out a few things ya missed , and I can't tell ya how many times I've heard Nattering Nabobs like yourself talk about what they can do prone or on the bench with nice contrasting targets at " the range".............yadda yadda " Open SiGhTEd"............blah blah blah.

Here ya go , can you distinguish that yellowish/greyish.brownish coyote from the cover at 500 yards *naked eye*.

I find your yapping amusing " don't know how to run a lathe" what the **** would THAT have to do with anything?

Rather amusing that out of the available talking points ya pick the one that hit closest to home and got ya all butt hurt.

Lemme know when you're going to show up in F-Class and TacBolt and show us all how it's " done". Or hey show up at The Great Ground Squirrel Shoot and embarass us all , I mean you're such a God-n-all that you won't even need good glass.

Now run along back to your "black rifle" masturbation.

**Devil** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 7:39pm

Originally Posted by Jazzman

Blaha blah bla. Because you're a raving bullshit artist that's why , because you were trolling like the punk you are and don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Because you're another jackass beating off with your M4/A4orgery and running your yap.

YUP I like the Savages , but if you weren't as freaking stupid as you are you'd have sussed out a few things ya missed , and I can't tell ya how many times I've heard Nattering Nabobs like yourself talk about what they can do prone or on the bench with nice contrasting targets at " the range".............yadda yadda " Open SiGhTEd"............blah blah blah.

Here ya go , can you distinguish that yellowish/greyish.brownish coyote from the cover at 500 yards *naked eye*.

I find your yapping amusing " don't know how to run a lathe" what the **** would THAT have to do with anything?

Rather amusing that out of the available talking points ya pick the one that hit closest to home and got ya all butt hurt.

Lemme know when you're going to show up in F-Class and TacBolt and show us all how it's " done". Or hey show up at The Great Ground Squirrel Shoot and embarass us all , I mean you're such a God-n-all that you won't even need good glass.

Now run along back to your "black rifle" masturbation.

Uh-oh, he's mad now.

I chose that from all the available talking points because you were commenting on my statement about group size.

I'm sure you're quite accomplished in your areas of interest, but what I find most amusing is that you think 10 inch groups at 500 yards on a known distance course with an A2 and open sights is an outlandish claim. I'm guessing your background isn't military because if it were, you probably wouldn't bat an eye at that statement.

It's solid shooting, but pretty much any Marine who shoots in the high Expert range can do that with an A2. Shooters on the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team can do much, much better than that because they shoot the same courses of fire all day long, almost every day and they use accurized rifles.

What you fail to understand is that a military qualification course isn't the same animal as shooting at bullseye targets. At 500 yards, there were two scores. 1 for a hit and 0 for a miss. The target was a B-Mod silhouette which is pretty big.

The group that I referred to was a little low and to the left. That's where the first round hit when I aimed center mass. No problem because it was still in the black. It was a score. To bring the next shot to the center it would've required a windage and elevation adjustment. But why bother? I knew I was far enough in the black that I wouldn't drop one into the white if I didn't make an adjustment. So I didn't. I aimed center and the rest of the shots were within 8 to 10" a little low and left. Perfect score at the 500 yard line. That's it. Nothing exciting or outlandish about it. If I had been shooting for X's my group would obviously have been larger because I would've had to make an adjustment to get to center.

The only statement I made was about the group size and it was a completely honest statement. But you decided it was impossible. And what the **** does that have to do with shooting coyotes, ground squirrels, F-Class or TacBolt? Did I make any claims about any of those things? Did I say anywhere that iron sights are the way to go and optics aren't necessary? Are you off your meds again?

Not knowing how to run a lathe is relevant because with all the actions available to build on for long range rifles you're recommending the Savage. Typical choice for Bubba, the kitchen table wannabe gunsmith because they're easy. No skill required.

Nevertheless, the truth is it's obvious you have more knowledge about shooting than the vast majority of posters here. I'd probably enjoy talking to you if you weren't a **** who can't contribute to a thread without calling everyone else who posts their experiences liars.

**Jazzman** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 9:39pm

Originally Posted by Devil

Uh-oh, he's mad now.

I chose that from all the available talking points because you were commenting on my statement about group size.

I'm sure you're quite accomplished in your areas of interest, but what I find most amusing is that you think 10 inch groups at 500 yards on a known distance course with an A2 and open sights is an outlandish claim. I'm guessing your background isn't military because if it were, you probably wouldn't bat an eye at that statement.

It's solid shooting, but pretty much any Marine who shoots in the high Expert range can do that with an A2. Shooters on the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team can do much, much better than that because they shoot the same courses of fire all day long, almost every day and they use accurized rifles.

What you fail to understand is that a military qualification course isn't the same animal as shooting at bullseye targets. At 500 yards, there were two scores. 1 for a hit and 0 for a miss. The target was a B-Mod silhouette which is pretty big.

The group that I referred to was a little low and to the left. That's where the first round hit when I aimed center mass. No problem because it was still in the black. It was a score. To bring the next shot to the center it would've required a windage and elevation adjustment. But why bother? I knew I was far enough in the black that I wouldn't drop one into the white if I didn't make an adjustment. So I didn't. I aimed center and the rest of the shots were within 8 to 10" a little low and left. Perfect score at the 500 yard line. That's it. Nothing exciting or outlandish about it. If I had been shooting for X's my group would obviously have been larger because I would've had to make an adjustment to get to center.

The only statement I made was about the group size and it was a completely honest statement. But you decided it was impossible. And what the **** does that have to do with shooting coyotes, ground squirrels, F-Class or TacBolt? Did I make any claims about any of those things? Did I say anywhere that iron sights are the way to go and optics aren't necessary? Are you off your meds again?

Not knowing how to run a lathe is relevant because with all the actions available to build on for long range rifles you're recommending the Savage. Typical choice for Bubba, the kitchen table wannabe gunsmith because they're easy. No skill required.

Nevertheless, the truth is it's obvious you have more knowledge about shooting than the vast majority of posters here. I'd probably enjoy talking to you if you weren't a **** who can't contribute to a thread without calling everyone else who posts their experiences liars.

You;re a liar AND an idiot , you have ZERO idea what I do or don't know and are merely taking potshots in the dark.

Gotta laugh at your elitist bullshit " Bubba" comment , any time you wish to show up at a meet and tell all the folks shooting high scores with Savage based rifles feel free to do so.

Now on your " ten inch" groups at 500 , the F-Class record at 1k is I think 4.55 on a ten group..........***with the BEST glass money can buy***.

As an aside you assclown , what makes you think I just shoot Savages? Missed the TRG did ya? Hows about Coopers? A Bat actioned 6mmbr , a Panda actioned , Bartlein barreld 6.5-284.

And tell ya what there , I'll take *any* Savage based rifle out of my safe and outshoot you with it. The action is making heavy inroads into the market for very good reasons.

See unlike Elitist Pricks such as yourself I only count reliability and function along with performance and I could give two shits what's stamped on the rifle.

As regards .223 , I've built a number of Varminters over the years in the cartridge , it's quite a capable cartridge but it's NOT the be-all end-all. Not even amongst the hardcore Varmint crowd.

Now if you want to get down to ACTUAL discussion instead of capping on each other we can , and I'll point out a few things.

Nowadays the reality is that there is enough decent to great glass around that there really is very little reason to shoot beyond 200 without decent glass.

And as I stated , open sights at the range are relatively easy , in the field with the target perhaps in cover etc at distancew , not so much , a *man* sized target could stand in brush at 500 in decent camo and you might well not see him as long as he stood steady.

Get to some of the stuff I customarily like to shoot and there is quite simply NO way you'll see a Rockchuck , 'Dog or Ground Squirrel @ 500 , if you can then when you level down your sight will cover the target.

Now flip side , and also accenting the " horse for courses" aspect.

The BEST freaking Glass in the world us *useless* for some tasks , as an example: I have two rifles set up for Far north DLP situations ( Bear) , one a '95 Guide Gun in .45-70 , the other a BAR with BOSS in .338 mag with the eight round mags a couple of guys now make , BOTH of these rigs are setup with Ghost-ring sights. A scope would get your ass eaten.

Now NOTE that you *never* heard me state that folks shouldn't practice at extended ranges , the experience is always good , and to this day I have one HELL of a lot of fun shooting way past the real range with a .22 lr. It's great practice.

Something else you'll encounter , as you age Glass will become even more crucial.

Now on to a *serious* invitation , if you ever find yourself up 'round the NorCal/Ore border when one is happening you should come to one of the GroundSquirrel Shoots , you'll have a ball no matter WHAT you bring , meet a HELL of a lot of very interesting rifle nuts including lotsa folks from the industry and you WILL run out of ammo , bring a spare barrel too. Incidentally that's why some of the Varmint crowd has gone to Savages , you can swap out a barrel in the motel room.

And nope it's not all Bolt guns , everything shows up , 'course there's the usual hardcore crowd that shows up with a golf bag of rifles , this year I figured I'd trip some folks out and take the TRG for windy conditions , though after the year the guy showed up from Wyo with a .458 Lott , and yes he made hits at beyond 400 , though you had to watch carefully 'cause there was little evidence left , anyway the TRG won't raise THAT many eyebrows.

And there is a couple from SoCal that shows up every year with a carload of AR variants every year that are just damn deadly , no **** for real 500-600 hits.

I'll likely take mostly larger stuff this year , I'm getting bored with the velocity chase with the .20s and barrel life in the .22-250 A.I. , not to mention the slug problems in the latter past the 4500 fps mark , I'll take my much loved pre Garcia Sako in .257 roberts , the Lapua ( Trg) , the Savage in .300 mag that I spoke of and my pet pre '64 ( heavily modded) Model 70 in 7mm rem-mag , the last being quite possibly the most accurate field rifle I've ever owned , a tick behind my bench rifles from the bench and one hell of a lot more carryable.

As for the " military" comment , lose the blinders. Just having "military" experience means squat , it's the *quality* of the experience.

Keep something in mind as regards perspective , sure I'm a bench type nut , but beyond that I'm a hardcore Varminter , most of us respond *only* to what works , I've seen a lot of folks who wer military , LEO , Range Champions etc. that couldn't shoot for **** in field conditions with wind , range estimation , up and downward angles along with traversing angles etc.etc.

And I cannot possibly begin to tell you how many XXXXXXXX YARDs shot I've walked off for folks that turned out to be 200 yards .

Now do you understand my point? You accented it yourself when you spoke of the practice engaged in by the Marine teams. Shooting a lot keeps you sharp , shooting a lot under challenging conditions keeps you sharper yet and expands your growth.

Here's a hypothetical question , how many missed have you made that you didn't learn something from? And I'd hazard a guess you'd adjust to field condtions well , your comment on windage and elevation bears that out , if it's an inch down and left and you don't have time then hold up and right.........a lot of folks don't have that degree of common sense anymore.

At any rate , we may have found some common ground , so what's your opinion on the 6.8 SPC ( chuckle)?

**Devil** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 9:50pm

Originally Posted by Jazzman

Now on your " ten inch" groups at 500 , the F-Class record at 1k is I think 4.55 on a ten group..........***with the BEST glass money can buy***.

Kindly explain how you extrapolate that a 10" group at 500 is impossible because the record is less than half that at twice the distance. You fail at logic and at math.

**Jazzman** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 10:37pm

Originally Posted by Devil

Kindly explain how you extrapolate that a 10" group at 500 is impossible because the record is less than half that at twice the distance. You fail at logic and at math.

You'r claiming regular ten inch groups at 500 opensighted. The with good glass it should be a piece of cake for you to beat that record of 4.55 at a thousand.

You orginally started this as if such things are *easy* , sorry but under field conditions it's quite problematic to hit the target at 500 yards opensighted.

You seem to think that this is the first time I've heard the " I hit everything with irons on the military range." it's not , lotsa folks say it.

**Practical** accuracy is a bit different , I've previously cited some of the reasons and variable.

But hey what would I know , after all some of my sticks are Savages , golly what could I know.

**Jazzman** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 10:42pm

Originally Posted by Devil

Kindly explain how you extrapolate that a 10" group at 500 is impossible because the record is less than half that at twice the distance. You fail at logic and at math.

Uh huh. I'm the one here claiming to be damn near a world class shooter am I? And 'logic' would dictate that given good glass you should be able to put 'em into half the spread that you did opensighted at twice the distance , I mean after all is just a walk in the park for a UberMensch such as yourself isn't it?

**Devil** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 11:00pm

Originally Posted by Jazzman

You'r claiming regular ten inch groups at 500 opensighted. The with good glass it should be a piece of cake for you to beat that record of 4.55 at a thousand.

You orginally started this as if such things are *easy* , sorry but under field conditions it's quite problematic to hit the target at 500 yards opensighted.

You seem to think that this is the first time I've heard the " I hit everything with irons on the military range." it's not , lotsa folks say it.

**Practical** accuracy is a bit different , I've previously cited some of the reasons and variable.

But hey what would I know , after all some of my sticks are Savages , golly what could I know.

Wow, I was just talking **** earlier when I asked if you were off your meds but now I have serious doubts about your sanity/drug use/lack of meds.

Okay, so I say I shot a 10" group at 500. Take that out to 1000 and that's 20" before you even consider increased effect of wind, decreased target visibility, spin drift, etc that makes a 1000 yard shot tougher. Yet, somehow you take that to mean I'm claiming to be able to make a 4.5" shot at a 1000 yards by looking through a scope. That's just fucking retarded. Seriously.

You're missing something in your argument. A 500 yard shot at a silhouette target with an A2 and irons is NOT a big fucking deal if you can see well. The target is just the right size to be able to line up well on your front sight post. Cut the target in half horizontally. Make sure the edges of your post are equal distances from the target's edge on the left and the right. Center everything up in your daytime peep sight. Bam.

It's really not that hard. It's precise enough that you wouldn't be gaining a lot by adding an optic in THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION. Attempting to take that statement and twist it around as if I'm claiming to be capable of breaking records at 1000 yards is fucking ludicrous.

And why do you keep harping about field conditions? I made zero claims about shooting in field conditions. Hell, I agree with you about the differences in field shooting and range shooting. In the very post you quoted my 10" group comment from I was discussing using known distance shooting as a precurser to more advanced shooting at unkown distances and I recommended the use of a good optic. So I'm really at a loss as to why you're going on about that when I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Really, think more and write less. At the very least, if you're going to rant like a maniac at least make sure it's about a point I've disagreed with you on.

**Devil** · Posted On: 5/14/2012 11:05pm

Originally Posted by Jazzman

And 'logic' would dictate that given good glass you should be able to put 'em into half the spread that you did opensighted at twice the distance

Um, no. See my point above about sight picture on a silhouette target. And even if I could put them in half the spread (which I didn't claim) that would still be 5" at 500 and 10" at 1000 not including any other variables. How the **** does that equal 4.5" at 1000?

You ain't too good at cipherin' are ya', Jethro?