Originally Posted by Devil
Just to add to what these gents said, I'll add that what I've read points to heavier bullets being better for traveling long distance (more likely to retain momentum) and lower drag bullets for being more accurate at those long distances (retained momentum, reduced wind effect, etc).
Originally Posted by zaohu
I was really interested in 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser about a year ago, still am, and so I'll point you to this:
The sectional density of 6.5x55mm is quite high, and very low drag bullets are pretty easy to find in the caliber, yet this video stops well short of 1,000 yards. The only thing I've ever found which discusses this distance in this caliber is this.
I mention 6.5x55mm only because I think it provides a nice basis of comparison: sectional density, low drag bullets, lots of loading data, and a clear distinction between ammo for old surplus rifles and modern loads. Other calibers have these properties, too, but my other purpose was to show what's possible without jumping to .30 caliber rifles. In other words, this post is meant to provide perspective more than direct answers.
200-400 yards are well within the capabilities of 5.56 and iron sights.
Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
I can *USUALLY* hit 300M targets 9 out of 10 times with iron sights with the 16" M4. With an M16 I think my ratio improves slightly. The limiting factor is my own eyesight past 300M. At 400M I require some sort of optic.
There are a lot of ballistics charts online that show the drop of a particular bullet at ranges. This varies greatly on the type of load being used but quite honestly when you are pushing past 500m you need something at the .30 range or better.
Have you looked into taking a long range rifle marksmanship course somewhere? Depending on the area, there are some very good courses available to the average person. Most don't go into 600+ distances, but they will get you headed in the right direction. Check out Appleseed at http://appleseedinfo.org/ They have great instruction on rifle use and they will help you with getting better at the basics of rifle shooting.
Now, onto your rifle choice. I shoot some pretty long ranges with some of my rifles: 600+ meters and what you are talking about is nearly impossible. I do shoot my Remmy 700 Tactical in .223 at distances out to 800m, but the rifle is almost 100% customized and I hand load each round using 75gr Hornady balistic tip bullets. I have drop and rise tables along with mindage for all the rounds I shoot. If I go over 700m, I normally get out the .308 and start shooting that. For me to attempt to shoot 700+ with my M4, I would be wasting rounds and my time. It is just not built for that. Add iron sights onto that and you are truly looking a miracle. Yes, you could hypothetically hit something at those long ranges with it, but they will not be consistant.
Second on the Appleseed thing, I've heard they provide a good foundation for rifle shooting. You also might want to check out the Magpul Precision Rifle DVD:
The books by Jim Owens helped me a lot when I started shooting high power and service rifle matches. Most of the matches I shot were at 200 and 300 yds with a reduced 600 yd target for the slow prone. Very occasionally I was able to shoot at a real 600 yd range. There is a huge difference between shooting a reduced 600 yd target at 300 yds and actually shooting at 600 yds, especially if it's a windy day, which it always seemed to be for those rare matches where we had a real 600 yd line.
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Originally Posted by chuey
...Well **** if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi **** I have heard in ages.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but
Three rights make a left.
Everyones making good points. My best shot with an A2 ironsights was 600m on a 600 meter KD range. I know lots of guys that can hit that much more consistent but they're mostly sniper school grads and winston P cup competitors ( I have the same issue as Yrkoon my eyesight is just **** at that distance.) You could simply improve by getting a 4x scope if you want to upgrade to optics. (A trijcon 4x Acog would be about 1k) thats a bit overboard but boy they're a sweet scope. Out to 300m though with a little practice should be no issue for you as thats basic training standards......One thing that instantly helped my distance shooting with the A2 was a tip I picked up from some president 100 guys and it involves trigger squeeze. Most guys squeeze the trigger and immediately let it go reset. Squeeze pause then release and you'll hear the click by waiting that fraction of a second to let the round fully leave the barrel the reset on the trigger won't impact your aim point. Just a small tip but it really does make a difference and is a super common mistake with a lot of people.
Originally Posted by Robstafarian
6.5 x 55 offers quite a lot of possibilities and indeed is one of the more under-rated of cartridges and easily as accurate as many of the other available sub .284s ( 7mm) , I see 3400 fps out of a 27 inch Pac Noir barreled and built Varminter based on the military action. This is one of my " wind rifles" for conditions that blow the *real* fast .19s ,.20s and .22s off course and indeed the 6.5 performs quite favorably as compared to the .284s and .30s out to the 800 or so mark.
Anfd y'all might note that **on the range** , or indeed for any other purpose than *pure* varminting the Velocity Chase is a road of diminishing returns.
Once you've gone been the 4300 fps mark or thereabouts you'll begin to have projectile problems and there are only a few that don't exhibit the shedding of jackets and the like.
And yes *weight* counts at actual extended ranges , but then actual projectile construction has just as much if not more to do with the equation.
And the trend is now back DOWN from the .50s , you'll find that the new generation .416s and .408 stay supersonic longer in the end hold a ballistic advantage over both the .50 and the available .338s.
Perspective...........the varminters I typically use are well past the 4k fps mark as an example I'll turn a 35 grain Berger MEF past 4500 with a variety of powders in .22-250 AI. Great for turning ground squirrels , 'chucks , crows , prairie dogs etc.etc. But drop one of those behind a coyotes shoulder at 500 plus and he'll run off on you.
Now *bench* rifles in pretty much whatever class , you'll find the significant competitors loading within the 2800-3200 window and utilisng VLDs at the heavier end , the exception being the Palma ammunition.
Another facet to keep in mind is Barrel life , I completely shitcanned my 7mm STW project over the sub 2 thousand round effective barrel life , and the REAL fast .22s when optimised for light slugs are NOT a great deal better.
As an aside , it was the 6.5 x 55 that spawned the interest and development of some of the new 6.5 wildcats such as the 6.5 x 284 and the like.
For those looking to build their own highly accurate rifle on the cheap , look to the Savage actions , and out of the box they are the best value on the market and just about the easiest rifle for the home Hotrodder to develop.
More perspective , I've a built Savage in .300 winmag that performs just a SLIGHT tick behind my TRG42 in .338 Lapau and cost less than HALF to build , discounting glass of course.
And sorry folks but I've got to laugh at some of the comments as regards iron sights within this thread. If the target is in cover you're unlikely to even SEE it at a thousand yards naked eye.
And a ten round group in under ten inches open sighted at a thousand yards. I'll believe it when it's done in front of me and no sooner. For yet more perspective perhaps some folks would care to take a gander at the F class and other records.
EDIT: fans of the 6mm and 6.5s might wish to take a close look at the 6.5 x 47 lapua.
Additionally , on the new .416s ( Barrett) you'll note that they stay supersonic for 500 yards or more beyond the point where a .50 goes subsonic , look closely at the slug constuction on the Barret and the available slugs for the .408 Cheytac.
Last edited by Jazzman; 5/12/2012 2:05pm at .
Jazzman, I believe you're referring to my post with your ten round group comment. If so, you misread my statement. Try again.
Originally Posted by Devil
No , I read your chest-thumping crap about 10 inch groups at 500 with open sights all day long.
And yeah I laughed , you figure out why.
Then why did you quote me as saying 10 inch groups at 1000?
Originally Posted by Jazzman
And clearly 2 MOA with an A2 on a near windless day as a personal best is unachievable. Clearly.
Thanks for all the valuable insight, Mr. ILuvsavage. (Translation: Jazzman doesn't know how to run a lathe.)
Last edited by Devil; 5/14/2012 1:43pm at .
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