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  1. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    I'm not making an argument. I was supporting yours.
    By pointing to the guy who abuses 911 regularly, calls the number again, disregards the instruction of the 911 operator to remain where he is, confronts and accosts someone, and then shot him? For you, that is an argument in favor of describing calling 911 as helpful rather than cowardice?
  2. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    By pointing to the guy who abuses 911 regularly, calls the number again, disregards the instruction of the 911 operator to remain where he is, confronts and accosts someone, and then shot him? For you, that is an argument in favor of describing calling 911 as helpful rather than cowardice?
    You're making the assumption that his 911 calls were unfounded.

    There is no legal requirement to follow the suggestions of the 911 operator, we covered this earlier.
  3. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:11pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    You're making the assumption that his 911 calls were unfounded.
    No, I am drawing the tentative conclusion that most of them were, based on my knowledge of him, of the calls, of the number of calls a reasonable person makes in an area of not-very-high crime, this particular case and what most reports describe as his behavior etc.

    I realize "assumption! assumption!" is a really wow argument in, say, junior high, but I passed Grown-Up 101 a long time ago.

    There is no legal requirement to follow the suggestions of the 911 operator, we covered this earlier.
    There is, however, a legal requirement not to shoot people for little reason. Also, any question of whether Zimmerman was acting reasonably when he confronted the victim will necessarily take into account what the 911 operator told him to do.
  4. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    No, I am drawing the tentative conclusion that most of them were, based on my knowledge of him, of the calls, of the number of calls a reasonable person makes in an area of not-very-high crime, this particular case and what most reports describe as his behavior etc.

    I realize "assumption! assumption!" is a really wow argument in, say, junior high, but I passed Grown-Up 101 a long time ago.



    There is, however, a legal requirement not to shoot people for little reason. Also, any question of whether Zimmerman was acting reasonably when he confronted the victim will necessarily take into account what the 911 operator told him to do.
    Was it an abuse by him to call 911 this time?
    Last edited by submessenger; 3/19/2012 1:13pm at . Reason: of->by
  5. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    Was it an abuse by him to call 911 this time?
    He called the non-emergency number. He decided then that he knew better than what the dispatcher told him, and the end result was a dead kid.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    You're making the assumption that his 911 calls were unfounded.
    This thread and debate is FULL OF assumptions.
  7. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 1:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    He called the non-emergency number. He decided then that he knew better than what the dispatcher told him, and the end result was a dead kid.
    Irrelevant; he called police dispatch, either way. There's nothing to suggest that he called a different number than the other 46 times, and almost all the press I've seen have referred to it as 911.

    And, you dodged the question - was it an abuse by him to call the police in this case? Assume that you know only what he knew when he placed the call. You are Zimmerman, it's night, it's raining, and somebody that you do not know by sight or personally is walking around your gated community in which there have been a recent spate of break-ins. Should you call the police in this case?

    Let me ask the question another way - do you think that Zimmerman thought he was helping every time he called 911? Perhaps some Orlando peeps can chime in, I know that here in Palm Beach and Broward, we're inundated with "if you see something, say something," campaign requesting reports exactly like Zimmerman was making. So, is this an abuse of the 911 system?
  8. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 2:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Calling 911 is help.
    Yeah, sure helped Trayshon, didn't it.

    From the audio I heard, there was yelling and a scuffle before any gunshots. If someone is in my back yard screaming for help, I'm going to go help.
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  9. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 2:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddykata View Post
    Irrelevant; he called police dispatch, either way. There's nothing to suggest that he called a different number than the other 46 times, and almost all the press I've seen have referred to it as 911.
    Quite relevant, actually. 911 is an emergency number—calling it for any reason other than a real emergency is abuse. A non-emergency number is much more difficult to abuse since there are many more legitimate reasons to call it. So if the question is one of abuse, then what qualifies as abuse is actually central to the question.

    Btw, I made an error in initially going along with your view of the case, and talking about 911. I apologize for taking your claims seriously without demanding a cite. I will never do so again. Most of the actual press I've seen makes it clear that the first call was a non-emergency call, especially the later press after a round of fact-checking and updates or two. Blogs and "news commentary" and such seem to have carried the 911-claim much further, but who fact-checks blogs again? (Nobody.)


    And, you dodged the question - was it an abuse by him to call the police in this case?
    I didn't dodge anything. I took the goal posts from where you had moved them and put them back to reality after double-checking your claim.


    Assume that you know only what he knew when he placed the call. You are Zimmerman, it's night, it's raining, and somebody that you do not know by sight or personally is walking around your gated community in which there have been a recent spate of break-ins. Should you call the police in this case?
    No, I would not. I don't consider walking a suspicious activity. Of course if "I'm Zimmerman" I would, because Zimmerman clearly had a bug up his ass about security. He was "patrolling" the neighborhood in his SUV, and then begins following the victim with his car.

    PS: you are to give cites for the gated community being small enough that it's reasonable to assume any resident would know any other resident or guest of a resident on sight, at night, in the rain, with a hood partially obscuring the walker's face; that the gated community doesn't have normal means of entrance and egress and through-traffic (some do, some don't); and that there has been a recent spate of break-ins outside of the ordinary levels of crime one would suspect.

    Let me ask the question another way - do you think that Zimmerman thought he was helping every time he called 911?
    Who knows what he thought every time. This time, he clearly thought that the police were inadequate as he complained to the dispatch

    first: “"Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male...Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is...These assholes, they always get away."

    then "****, he's running."

    He then decides to follow the victim, even as the dispatcher tells him not to.

    That's a guy spoiling for a confrontation, not engaging in a reasonable phone call to either 911 or the non-emergency number. And gosh, he got his confrontation, and I guess the victim actually paid attention to Bullshido because the kid knew how to fight. And then Zimmerman fired one bullet, then a second one into the victim.
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2012 2:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by money View Post
    Yeah, sure helped Trayshon, didn't it.
    Do you have access to the alternative universe in which people ran out to see what was going on and had to decide immediately on which side to intervene and how it went for everyone then?


    From the audio I heard, there was yelling and a scuffle before any gunshots. If someone is in my back yard screaming for help, I'm going to go help.
    And what happens if you get shot too?

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