Just because what Zimmerman did doesn't fit the legal definition of murder doesn't mean he's an "innocent victim". I think it's pretty clear that no one would have had to die if Zimmerman weren't being a paranoid vigilante or if Zimmerman hadn't ignored instructions from the police. The controversy surrounding this case is clearly more than just a media fabrication.
Originally Posted by Devil
A. Zimmerman didn't break a single law. He was attacked and defended himself. That makes him an innocent victim. The fact that you or others may not like his perfectly legal behavior doesn't make him any less innocent in the eyes of the law. I know people here are using measuring sticks other than the law, but the law is the only measuring stick that matters here.
Originally Posted by OwlMatt
B. Would Martin be dead if Zimmerman stayed at home? Nope, I've said so myself multiple times in this thread. But Martin also wouldn't be dead if he had gone to his fucking house either. Being pissed off at someone for scoping you out doesn't give you the right to confront them and beat the **** out of them.
C. Was George Zimmerman paranoid? I think that's an exaggeration. It's not unreasonable to be alert when multiple crimes have occurred in your neighborhood recently.
D. Was George Zimmerman a vigilante? Hell no, that's pure emotional crybaby talk. Vigilantes don't call the cops. Vigilantes do commit crimes in the pursuit of what they believe is justice. Zimmerman didn't commit a crime.
E. Zimmerman did not ignore instructions from the police. First, he was talking to a 911 dispatcher, not a sworn police officer. Second, the dispatcher told him not to follow Martin. He said "okay". He contends he did not follow him after that and there is insufficient evidence to prove that he did follow him. The prosecution in this case certainly was unable to prove that. In fact, the evidence indicates that Martin made it all the way back to the apartment he was heading to, then turned around and made his way back to Zimmerman.
F. Yes, the controversy surrounding this case is more than just a media fabrication. It's also about race hysteria, gutless prosecutors who wilted under public pressure. It's about lack of education and a lack of intelligence in the sense that masses of ignorant people can be persuaded that some huge injustice exists despite the fact that the evidence clearly indicated otherwise. It was clear from the beginning if you have a basic understanding of self defense rights in the U.S. and the State of Florida.
Read the thread from the beginning. I figured all this **** out within about a day of the story hitting the news. Why do people still not get it over a year later, even with access to every detail of the encounter? Simple. They're not that smart.
Last edited by Devil; 7/14/2013 9:18am at .
No, this is a case of the letter of the law supporting the spirit of the law in full. You don't get to beat up nosey assholes. You do have the right to defend yourself against someone who physically attacks you simply because they think you should mind your own business. The spirit of the law has been upheld.
Originally Posted by Resonance10
I actually agree with most of this, and I, like you, predicted the outcome of this trial long ago in this thread based on a complete lack of evidence that Zimmerman committed murder.
Originally Posted by Devil
I'd like to point out, though, that Zimmerman did not call 911. He called the police on the police number. He was talking to the cops, not to a 911 dispatcher. He was instructed by the police not to continue following Martin, and he decided to do so anyway.
He decided that having the police on it was not good enough, that he personally needed to be involved in the enforcement of the law, despite having not seen anything more illegal than a kid walking down the street and despite having received specific instructions from the police to leave off. That's why I call him paranoid, that's why I call him a vigilante, and that's why I'm uncomfortable with Zimmerman being referred to as a victim.
Zimmerman is a fucked-up Batman wannabe who decided he knew better than the cops and intentionally created a dangerous situation. Even if he's not a murderer (and I think it's pretty clear that he's not), "innocent" and "victim" are words that do not do justice to this situation.
I stand corrected on the dispatcher. Thanks.
Originally Posted by OwlMatt
But again, you're stretching. Please provide proof that he continued to follow Martin. He says he did not and if there's proof to indicate that he did, I haven't heard it. Did he go back home? No. Does that mean he was following him after being told not to? No.
He did not undertake law enforcement in his own hands. He called the police and attempted to provide them with the information he thought was necessary for them to properly investigate a potential suspicious person in the neighborhood. Remember, people everywhere do that all the time. Listen to a police scanner. People call the police all over the country for stupid bullshit nonstop. It doesn't make them vigilantes. Zimmerman was more determined to provide info for the cops, but he didn't take the law into his own hands. He was trying to help the police do their job.
Again, he's only guilty of being nosey. If I responded to nosey people the way Trayvon Martin did, every old lady in my neighborhood would be dead. Zimmerman was a victim. Trayvon Martin committed a criminal act against him.
So if someone is breaking into your home and the 911 dispatcher tells you to "Hide under the bed and stay on the line with me"....but you decide to get your gun and defend yourself...you think that you now have some legal liability because you "ignored police orders"?
Not saying that Zimmerman was purely clean here, but this "HE IGNORED 911!!!" meme is getting overused....
Wait a second, OwlMatt. I take it back. I don't stand corrected. You stand corrected. I made the mistake of giving you the benefit of the doubt that you knew what you were talking about. My bad.
Zimmerman talked to Sean Noffke, a dispatcher. I was correct that he was not a sworn law enforcement officer. He was just a phone jockey.
On the subject of police dispatchers. I think I posted about this story earlier in the thread. Several months ago in my state there was a situation where a teenage boy killed a home invader to protect himself and his sister. He called 911. The dispatcher told him to put the gun down. It turned out later that the intruder was not alone and he would've been in immediate danger if he had followed those instructions. You can't rely on those fucking people. You have to determine what actions are necessary to maintain your own personal security.
Dershowitz's scathing take on the prosecution:
Dershowitz: Zimmerman Prosecutors 'Should Be Disbarred'
Except this wasn't about Zimmerman's personal security, at least not at the time that Zimmerman was talking to the dispatcher.
Like I said before, I agree with you. What Zimmerman did, at least according to the available facts, wasn't murder or even criminal. I was just objecting to your choice of words because I thought they misrepresented the situation.
There are very few people who have a lower opinion of Zimmerman than I do, but I pretty much agree with everything said here. The prosecution was grasping at straws; they had to because they were prosecuting a case that should never have been prosecuted in the first place. This case was taken up because of political pressure, not because anyone thought there was real evidence of murder.
Originally Posted by ChenPengFi
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO