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  1. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 10:42pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    All of it.

    No one will listen to the facts IMO. All of this will boil down to race being an issue. I think they over charged him, but I can see the jury being worried for "all da little black chillun" and convicting him. I can also see them saying "look at all the racial pressure it wasn't murder" and finding him not guilty.
    I'm not convinced the societal racial pressure can affect a sequestered jury the way you think it can. I suspect the people in that courtroom are going to become pretty numb to all the race talk long before this trial is over.

    What this is going to come down to, I think, is whether or not the prosecution can punch holes in Zimmerman's self-defense claim. As of right now, it sounds like an eyewitness has Martin on top of Zimmerman hitting him. That sounds like a lot of work for the prosecution to me.

    The prosecution can spend all the time they want proving that Zimmerman is a deluded, paranoid, gun-toting idiot (by all accounts, he is), but that's not going to prove murder.
  2. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 11:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What seems to be a pretty clear take on the case as it unfolds, as well as many relevant links, can be found here: http://lawofselfdefense.com/zimmerma...er-yes-and-no/

    To clearly understand the issue, however, we need to take a step back, and consider what the State actually has to accomplish in this case (or, really, any self-defense case).

    (1) They need to prove each and every element of a criminal charge–either murder 2 or manslaughter–beyond a reasonable doubt.

    (2) They have to disprove any single element of the legal defense of self-defense-beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I’ve mentioned there’s no way the State can prove murder 2. Manslaughter, however, should be a walk in the park. All that’s really required of the state is to prove (a) Zimmerman deliberately used force against Martin, and (b) Martin died as a result (I’m simplifying of course, but you get the idea).

    Even if the state can prove the elements of manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt–and I believe they can–they still need to overcome Zimmerman’s claim of self defense if they wish to obtain a conviction on that charge.

    Unless the State can disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury must conclude that Zimmerman did, in fact, act in self-defense. Because self-defense is an absolute justification for the use of deadly force against another, it matters not a whit if the elements of either murder 2 or manslaughter have been proven 2 beyond a reasonable doubt–the verdict must be “Not Guilty.”

    So, the bottom line is: If the State can’t prove murder 2, they can almost certainly prove manslaughter–but still not get a verdict of “Guilty” if they can’t disprove self-defense.


    Depraved mind commentary by same author here:
    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06...depraved-mind/
    Last edited by ChenPengFi; 7/01/2013 11:53pm at . Reason: added quote
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 11:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    To get Zimmerman for murder, the prosecution is going to have to prove that Zimmerman was not responding to threat when he shot Martin, and I don't see how that's possible.
    Not exactly they have to show is his self defence claim isn't valid as a matter of Law. Also as Rabbit said ealier he has to prove self defense. They have to prove murder. They have a dead body. He has a few scrapes. He has to prove he didn't initiate the fight.

    He is inocent until proven guilty but he has to make his defense case and back it up with facts.
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 12:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quick correction for clairity. The state does have to prove he started the fight, but it would go a long way towards conving a jury if he had a solid defense against it.

    One more thing resonable doubt doesn't mean no doubt.
  5. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 6:25am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The state is going to have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight, and I haven't heard anything yet that indicates that's possible. I think it's pretty clear, unless there's something very big that the public hasn't heard yet, that Zimmerman is going to walk for this.

    What we might see, I think, is an O.J.-like situation in which the killer walks for murder but still could be successfully sued. Zimmerman broke every rule in the neighborhood watch book and chose to ignore specific police instructions; I suspect that alone would be enough for a good lawyer to bury him in civil court.
  6. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 6:34am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    It does not follow that you get any presumption of innocence when the facts already prove you've killed someone, especially after provoking an encounter with the victim...

    George Zimmerman is certainly NOT innocent of killing someone, after all. And he and his team have to prove it was self defense...the prosecution doesn't have to prove very much at all, only that Zimmerman's use of lethal force (which is incontrovertible) was not justified.

    This is why the 911 call is so critical...it's what suggests the entire situation was caused by Zimmerman, which undermines his claim of self defense. There is no evidence to date that suggests Martin was looking for an encounter with anyone, or that he had a violent past, unlike Zimmerman who does have such a history.

    Zimmerman had a long history of calling E911 (an emergency line) to support every single "suspicious" person he saw, and the last of these calls practically captured him killing one of them. That does not bode well for his defense, in my opinion.
    We're inundated with "if you see something, say something," down here. The ads run on radio, on TV, and on billboards and other static media. It's hard to fault the man for doing what officials are begging him to do, especially considering the alleged crime wave in his community.

    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt
    What we might see, I think, is an O.J.-like situation in which the killer walks for murder but still could be successfully sued. Zimmerman broke every rule in the neighborhood watch book and chose to ignore specific police instructions; I suspect that alone would be enough for a good lawyer to bury him in civil court.
    I think it's pretty well established that the request of a 911 operator does not constitute a legal order with which he had to comply. It was dumb of him not to do so, but not illegal.
    Last edited by submessenger; 7/02/2013 6:41am at . Reason: not post whoring
  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 7:35am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    To get Zimmerman for murder, the prosecution is going to have to prove that Zimmerman was not responding to threat when he shot Martin, and I don't see how that's possible.
    Or that he was responding to a threat he created by starting a fight. It's not "self defence" if you resort to lethal force because you're losing.
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 8:31am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, the main reasons I'm interested in this have very little to do with the specifics of the case. I'm interested in it because I believe external forces are influencing a legal / criminal matter and that's not how things should work.

    If I were following the case by reading an occasional story on the third page of a local newspaper, I would assume that things would be handled appropriately. It's no secret that I tend to align myself with people who I think are acting in self defense, exercising their right to bear arms, etc. But I'm aware of the law and if I felt the law was prevailing, there wouldn't be much to talk about, whether Zimmerman went free or went to prison.

    But George Zimmerman would likely never have been charged with a crime without media attention and public pressure. I believe investigators looked at all the evidence and determined they didn't really have much of a case. That's why there was no charge for like a month. Then came the pressure. I strongly believe Angela Corey also knew they didn't have a strong case but wasn't willing to risk being the one to inflame the masses by letting Zimmerman walk. It was way easier for her to prosecute and let the jury make the call. She's a dicktucker and she's off the hook.

    That's also why I think Zimmerman will be found not guilty - because the evidence against him has been weak from day one and despite the media craziness, I believe the law will ultimately prevail inside the courtroom.
  9. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 8:43am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm seriously going to be sad when this is all over. It's been a long running source of entertainment. Hopefully we'll get to close it out with a kickass finale. Maybe some race riots. That would be awesome.


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  10. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2013 9:52am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Or that he was responding to a threat he created by starting a fight. It's not "self defence" if you resort to lethal force because you're losing.
    That's true, but I haven't heard anything so far indicating that Zimmerman did anything except follow Martin.

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