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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 4:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    A fight did ensue, and Martin might well have been "winning", but if Zimmerman went in angry AND armed, I just think a claim of self defense is kaput.

    We'll see.
    I don't think being angry and armed automatically negates self defense claims.
  2. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I don't think being angry and armed automatically negates self defense claims.
    Thisvis the crux of the issue really
    Had Zimmerman done what the police told him he wouldn't be on trial and Treyvon would still be alive.

    To what level of responsibilty do we as a society assign to Zimmermin for being antogonstic, then getting his ass beat?
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Thisvis the crux of the issue really
    Had Zimmerman done what the police told him he wouldn't be on trial and Treyvon would still be alive.

    To what level of responsibilty do we as a society assign to Zimmermin for being antogonstic, then getting his ass beat?
    Not really sure, but lots of scenarios where someone is a victim make said victim angry. Said angry victim may be carrying a weapon as well, and may use it to prevent the crime against them. Up to there I don't see any claim to self defense automatically vanishing.

    Seems like Wrabbit's "angry AND armed" distinction would mean that you're only allowed to use a weapon to defend yourself if the crime doesn't make you angry.

    I also don't agree with Wrabbit's thought that fighting position is irrelevant to the trial. Being on top of someone while striking and bouncing their head off the ground is lethal force. I know a guy that killed a man like this (unintentionally, in fact). I wouldn't imagine a lengthy murder trial would just gloss over this because this is the context of the shooting. If Trayvon was in a position that gave him the means to kill Zimmerman, how would that be irrelevant to the firearm discharge?

    I should point out in this that my gut feeling is that Zimmerman was wrong from the beginning and I'm not trying to defend him.
  4. ermghoti is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:19pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Thisvis the crux of the issue really
    Had Zimmerman done what the police told him he wouldn't be on trial and Treyvon would still be alive.
    The police didn't tell him anything. 911 operators are public employees, not any more law enforcement than the person answering the phone at a hospital is a medical professional.

    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    To what level of responsibilty do we as a society assign to Zimmermin for being antogonstic, then getting his ass beat?
    Now we're at Floriduh's goofy version of SYG. There is apparently not a requirement to de-escalate, in addition to the more reasonable removal of a duty to retreat. Most states, with good reason, consider failing to avoid a confrontation as initiating whatever violence stems from that confrontation, with some caveats for defensing one's residence.

    Besides, any aggression Zimmerman displayed has been counter-acted by Martin's surly girlfriend's recollection of the "creepy ass cracker" comment. Zimmerman's claim that he was attacked is not only uncontradicted by available evidence, it is plausible.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am taking W Rabbits statement with some context in this instance being armed and angry. Not as a blanket statement across all situations.

    The fact Zimmer was angry and armed prior to the actual confrontation certainly can be viewed as a contributing factor.

    SYG means not having to deescalate and retreat but does it give permission to pursue and confront someone, to in essence start something? In particular after being told to not do so from a 911 dispatcher.

    Also you think the G/f using crazy ass cracker lends it self to showing that Martin didn't feel that HIS life was in danger prior to the confrontation that he responded in kind using the same law that his killer is using to defend himself? Surely you can see that he felt he was in danger. So this make Z the initial aggressor. So question is how does stand your ground work in this sort of situation?

    You have a person who where he was allowed to be minding his own business being approached by an obviously angry man (whom was suppose to only observe and report). This is a hard thing to simply parce into clear levels of guilt.
    Is he guilty of 2nd degree murder? I sure the hell don't know. In fact I am happy I don't have to draw that line. Are actions that he took that night responsible for someone else losing their life? Obviously yes. Where those actions egregious enough that we as a socity think he should be punished in some way? **** if I know.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Besides, any aggression Zimmerman displayed has been counter-acted by Martin's surly girlfriend's recollection of the "creepy ass cracker" comment.
    Now how Ironic will it be if Zimmerman gets off for the EXACT reason OJ did in reverse? I'd piss everyone off and wear a "race card works for white people too" shirt.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 5:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, I know he is Hispanic, but everyone with an agenda still pushes he is white or ignores his background.
  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 6:13pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    SYG means not having to deescalate and retreat but does it give permission to pursue and confront someone, to in essence start something? In particular after being told to not do so from a 911 dispatcher.
    According to CNN's line of events, on April 30th George Zimmerman waived his right to a "stand your ground" pretrial immunity hearing. Zimmerman's attorneys decide they will instead try this as a self-defense case. If Zimmerman had had a pretrial immunity hearing, a judge would have ruled whether his actions were protected under the "stand your ground" law. If the judge had ruled in favor of Zimmerman, it would have meant that no criminal or civil trial could proceed.

    source:
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justic...ef=storysearch

    So, I'm not sure how relevant SYG discussion is after that.

    Also you think the G/f using crazy ass cracker lends it self to showing that Martin didn't feel that HIS life was in danger prior to the confrontation that he responded in kind using the same law that his killer is using to defend himself? Surely you can see that he felt he was in danger. So this make Z the initial aggressor. So question is how does stand your ground work in this sort of situation?
    I don't think that necessarily shows anything. I can see scenarios where "crazy ass cracker" could be used in fear, anger, annoyance, or in jest.
  9. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 6:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let's see how the evidence plays out before convicting the man. What was that overriding assumption of our justice system we hold so dear? Something about innocent until proven guilty?

    Some posting in this thread would make piss poor jurors.

    and

    WTF does race have to do with this case? Really? It took all of a couple of days for the usual race pimps to show up, posturing as, well, usual. Some ignorant bitch gets up to testify and uses the dreaded 'cracker' term. **** all, she's showing her ass and doesn't matter for ****.

    Context-

    One young man dead before he's had a chance to live a life. Mother and father lost a son. Maybe he was a good kid, maybe not. One man now fighting for his liberty. Maybe he was the aggressor, and again, maybe not. There are no winners here people. You arm chair prosecutors should hope you're shown justice if you ever have need of a fair trial.

    ....disclaimer.....

    Just finished a week of jury duty wherein it would have been a joy to have thrown a gang banger in prison on a weapons charge. Unfortunately, given the evidence presented, we had to vote not guilty. Fucker was and has been guilty of a lot of ****, but the evidence as presented did not meet the level of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' required to convict in this particular case.


    end of rant
  10. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2013 6:34pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Now how Ironic will it be if Zimmerman gets off for the EXACT reason OJ did in reverse? I'd piss everyone off and wear a "race card works for white people too" shirt.
    LOL. My wife watched every bit of that fiasco. Nearly drove me nuts.

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