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  1. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    So, just catching up... Devil successfuly argued that throwdows and gong saus are criminal (and possibly capital) offenses. Got it.
    You suck at reading. If a gong sau is a full-on fight in a parking lot, then yeah it's illegal. Capital? You're just making **** up. A throwdown is different. It is organized martial arts practice. Hard training doesn't make it cease to be training. Don't be a goofball.
  2. omoplatypus is offline
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    Merry Christmas! shitter's full...

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea that Z is not guilty as he was attacked returning to his car assumes Zs story is true.

    I need to see the trial before I decide if it is or isn't. As it stands now, evidence is there to pit Z on trial for murder (although manslaughter is probably more appropriate), but nothing else. Just a trial. Yes I am biased against Z but I still want a fair trial to settle this, and smoking pot and back yard sparring is not a reason to be killed when accosted by a stranger.

    And I shudder to think what would happen if I wound up in this kind of situation, having participated in throwdowns and attended a gong sau and everything.

    Hell I even did coke in the 90s and smoke weed a fee times a year now.

    Last edited by omoplatypus; 5/22/2012 1:12pm at .
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    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
  3. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omoplatypus View Post
    The idea that Z is not guilty as he was attacked returning to his car assumes Zs story is true.

    I need to see the trial before I decide if it is or isn't. As it stands now, evidence is there to pit Z on trial for murder (although manslaughter is probably more appropriate), but nothing else. Just a trial. Yes I am biased against Z but I still want a fair trial to settle this, and smoking pot and back yard sparring is not a reason to be killed when accosted by a stranger.

    And I shudder to think what would happen if I wound up in this kind of situation, having participated in throwdowns and attended a gong sau and everything.

    Hell I even did coke in the 90s and smoke weed a fee times a year now.

    Yes, the idea that Zimmerman was attacked as he returned to his car assumes his story is true. Duh. And the idea that something other than that happened assumes whose story is true? Anyone......Anyone......

    I never said smoking weed and unsanctioned fighting is reason to be killed by a stranger. You want that to be my argument, but it isn't because that would be a foolish argument. That argument is bullshit. Just like your argument. In fact, I used that bullshit argument to highlight the hilarity of your argument about the relevance of Zimmerman's supposed racism.

    You have a valid concern about what would happen if you ended up in this type of situation. You obviously have a very poor understanding of your rights and limitations when it comes to self defense. Which means you're likely to do something that will get your ass thrown in the slammer. In all seriousness, it wouldn't hurt to go take a concealed carry course even if you have no desire to carry a weapon. If you find a good one, they'll give you a solid overview of self defense law in your state.
  4. omoplatypus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL. I have a better understanding than most about SD rights. 1 my BA is a pre law/con law degree. 2 I work in a law firm. 3 lots of people that have trained me or trained with me have been cops who have lectured at length about SD issues. 4 I have done the Missouri concealed carry classes (my firm offers them free to employees).

    That's why my opinion is based on this dumb ass SYG law. Of it were a normal SD law, I would be much more ready to say Z was legally in the right to shoot T assuming the ground n pound bit is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omoplatypus View Post
    LOL. I have a better understanding than most about SD rights. 1 my BA is a pre law/con law degree. 2 I work in a law firm. 3 lots of people that have trained me or trained with me have been cops who have lectured at length about SD issues. 4 I have done the Missouri concealed carry classes (my firm offers them free to employees).

    That's why my opinion is based on this dumb ass SYG law. Of it were a normal SD law, I would be much more ready to say Z was legally in the right to shoot T assuming the ground n pound bit is true.

    With your long list of supposed knowledge, why is it that you can't demonstrate any of it? The drug use, perhaps?
  6. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 1:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omoplatypus View Post
    That's why my opinion is based on this dumb ass SYG law. Of it were a normal SD law, I would be much more ready to say Z was legally in the right to shoot T assuming the ground n pound bit is true.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. I had to read this part again.

    Are you saying you can buy that Zimmerman could be innocent under typical self defense law, but he can't be because Florida has the additional SYG provision? Tell me I read that wrong. Please. You do realize SYG is an additional layer of protection and it doesn't eliminate the right to self defense a person would otherwise have, right? Right?
  7. omoplatypus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 2:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me explain it again very carefully.

    Z followed T on his car then when T ran Z pursued him on foot and a scuffle began. Now, under regular SD laws, when T went to GNP (assuming no return to the car) Z became the victim and was in imminant danger.

    But under SYG T could meet force with force up to lethal force if he reasonably thought his life was in danger. Being chased down by a stranger fits that.

    To much is unknown unclear or assumed. That's why I keep saying I can't wait for the trial. Yes I think Z is not innocent but I am callimg for a fair trial and have been from the beginning. Why can you not understand that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
  8. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 2:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omoplatypus View Post
    Let me explain it again very carefully.

    Z followed T on his car then when T ran Z pursued him on foot and a scuffle began. Now, under regular SD laws, when T went to GNP (assuming no return to the car) Z became the victim and was in imminant danger.

    But under SYG T could meet force with force up to lethal force if he reasonably thought his life was in danger. Being chased down by a stranger fits that.

    To much is unknown unclear or assumed. That's why I keep saying I can't wait for the trial. Yes I think Z is not innocent but I am callimg for a fair trial and have been from the beginning. Why can you not understand that?

    I think you missed the part where both Zimmerman's and Martin's injuries (gsw aside) were consistent with Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman, not the other way around. Assuming that evidence is true and correct, Martin had no standing under SYG because he was the aggressor.
  9. omoplatypus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 2:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's the agreesor when getting chased down by someone? That's a huge stretch.

    Its unknown if Z was really walking back to his car. Its unknown who put their hands on the other first. Its unknown how one sided the fight was.

    That is why a trial is needed to sort it out. I also said manslaughter appears to be a more fitting charge than murder.

    Why do I keep having to say that? I'm not calling for Zs public hanging. I'm calling for him to have a chance to be found not guilty? Do you have a problem with that?

    Last edited by omoplatypus; 5/22/2012 2:28pm at .
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    Quote Originally Posted by it is fake View Post
    yeah, normally i'd get a quote, but couldn't be bothered.
  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2012 2:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omoplatypus View Post
    Z followed T on his car then when T ran Z pursued him on foot and a scuffle began. Now, under regular SD laws, when T went to GNP (assuming no return to the car) Z became the victim and was in imminant danger.

    But under SYG T could meet force with force up to lethal force if he reasonably thought his life was in danger. Being chased down by a stranger fits that.

    Part of the miscommunication is that you're viewing Martin as the victim and looking at his rights to self defense and I'm viewing Zimmerman as the victim and looking at his rights to self defense. Let's try to bring it all together for the big finale.

    You're saying under regular laws Martin's self defense would've become assault once he went to GNP, giving Zimmerman the right to defend himself? Okay, I can see that argument although I think Zimmerman would have a tough road because it would be easier to prove he initiated the fight if there were no return to the car and his pursuit of Martin was successful.

    Your second statement - Given the same scenario but with SYG, Martin would've had no duty to retreat. Agreed. He can respond with lethal force if necessary. Agreed. If Zimmerman responds by shooting him, he's fucked. Generally, I would agree but if your argument is that Martin crossed the line by going to GNP, giving Zimmerman the right to defend himself then that holds true under the SYG scenario also. SYG doesn't mean you can beat the **** out of your attacker after they're no longer a threat.

    I'm trying to reconcile your thoughts with reality but your argument is a mess. Plus, your whole position falls apart if the prosecution can't prove Zimmerman is lying about returning to the car.

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