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  1. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 12:32pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ/MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    That goes both ways, Colin. We'd be having a different conversation if M smashed Z's brains into the ground.

    If you are the victim of violence and rendered helpless, whether you live or die is no longer within your control. That's part of why we permit self-defense as a justification for homicide.
    Sure, but this is speculation again.
    Have you ever tried to kill a person with your bare hands? concrete or no concrete, it's no easy feat. I'm not saying it can't happen - I'm saying that fist fights only tend to end up with someone dead when a weapon is involved.
  2. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 12:42pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Sure, but this is speculation again.
    Have you ever tried to kill a person with your bare hands? concrete or no concrete, it's no easy feat. I'm not saying it can't happen - I'm saying that fist fights only tend to end up with someone dead when a weapon is involved.
    As Martin describes it (leave aside whether that's true) it was not a "fistfight." It was an unprovoked assault by a stranger who appeared to be on drugs.

    People have been killed from single blows to the head-typically a KO followed by head trauma from the fall. You also know why blows the the back of the head are banned in MMA-they're very dangerous. How safe do you think having your head bounced off of pavement is? And how do you know that the other guy isn't armed? Are you supposed to just take your beating and wait until you see a weapon? Another cliche: you feel the knife before you see it.

    You don't get to tap out in real life. And if you pass out, well, it's up to the other guy whether you wake up or not.

    And you are permitted to use deadly force to prevent serious bodily harm, not just death.
  3. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    And you are permitted to use deadly force to prevent serious bodily harm, not just death.
    Sorry, I'm derailing the legal discussion with a philosophical one, as I am wont to do, being a philosophy major and all.

    I'll try to leave Aristotle out :)
  4. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:15pm

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     Style: MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    As Martin describes it (leave aside whether that's true) it was not a "fistfight." It was an unprovoked assault by a stranger who appeared to be on drugs.

    People have been killed from single blows to the head-typically a KO followed by head trauma from the fall. You also know why blows the the back of the head are banned in MMA-they're very dangerous. How safe do you think having your head bounced off of pavement is? And how do you know that the other guy isn't armed? Are you supposed to just take your beating and wait until you see a weapon? Another cliche: you feel the knife before you see it.

    You don't get to tap out in real life. And if you pass out, well, it's up to the other guy whether you wake up or not.

    And you are permitted to use deadly force to prevent serious bodily harm, not just death.
    How long do i have to skulk around behind you to qualify as provoking you

    And if i did, how would you react, since you have to assume everyone is armed?
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  5. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:15pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Sorry, I'm derailing the legal discussion with a philosophical one, as I am wont to do, being a philosophy major and all.

    I'll try to leave Aristotle out :)
    Try Aquinas. That's really the modern foundation of self-defense theory in the West. Double intent and all that.
  6. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:20pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    How long do i have to skulk around behind you to qualify as provoking you

    And if i did, how would you react, since you have to assume everyone is armed?

    One: That's not a provocation to violence under the circumstances described. It's lawful behavior. If Martin didn't like it he should have left or called cops.

    Two: it's hard to say what I'd do in the in the position Z says he was in. Too many variables. I can't fault Z for the decision he made to shoot, though (again assuming that it happened as he said it did).
  7. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:27pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    I'm saying that fist fights only tend to end up with someone dead when a weapon is involved.
    Streetfights usually involve a weapon called "the street".
  8. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:30pm

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     Style: Aikido,Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Streetfights usually involve a weapon called "the street".
    dogfights can include airplanes...what's up with that?
  9. Colin is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 1:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Streetfights usually involve a weapon called "the street".
    Clearly I'm forgetting how dangerous all the glass and lava can be :P
    *I did note the concrete as a counter-consideration.
  10. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/09/2012 2:01pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Why not just kneecap a ************, if you are INSISTING on using a firearm..
    Femoral artery?
    I was taught that if you simply point your gun at something, you should be ok with that thing dying or being destroyed.
    You cannot reliably stop someone who intends to do you serious bodily harm, nor can you guarantee their relative safety by shooting someone in the leg.
    If you shoot someone, you should assume that death is a likely outcome.

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