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  1. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:24am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How do .22 groups like my .45 groups...

    At 10yds (indoor range) my groups with my .45ACP average about 3.5"-4.5" for 7 rounds. Not spectacular...but not bad.

    (Weapon: Springfield Champion Operator 4.5" .45ACP, 7 rnds)

    At 10yds (indoor range) my groups with my .22 rimfire average about...well...it depends on how big my target is....mayby 6"-12".

    (Weapon: Sig Sauer Mosquito .22 cal, 10 rnds)

    I'm fairly new to pistol shooting and have not found my shooting "groove" yet. But, it would seem to me that my groups with a .22 cal with recoil no worse than a Red Ryder BB Gun should be tighter than my groups with a .45.

    I've researched and tried different grips:

    1. One handed point shooting grip (this SUCKED for me and simply felt rediculous)

    2. Cup and Saucer two-handed grip (this was OK for .357 or .38 revolvers, but felt a bit loose for semi-auto control)

    3. Thumb on thumb pointing at the sight picture (this is what I am using now and it seems a bit hit or miss, sorry for the unintented pun, but I feel that I secondary hand pulls a bit to the left at times).

    4. Thumb down on primary hand with other thumb crossing over (played with it a bit but it felt about as comfortable as intertwining my fingers when gripping a golf club, i.e., not confortable at all).

    I take a slightly wider than shoulder width stance with my right leg forward as the right hand is my main grip hand and I try to lean slightly forward...more so when shooting the higher calibers to counter the recoil so as to not disrupt my sight picture too much.

    So...why can't I shoot a damn .22? Any help or assitance would be great. I'll get out the range this week and get some pics to show the discrepancy as exact round placement may provide some better info.

    Thanks for the help.

    Erik
  2. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:31am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    do your .45 groups come in a little low, usually?
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  3. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:37am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, the .22 cartridge is inherently less accurate than the .45.

    Plus you've probably got a better trigger on the .45. The barrel on the Mosquito is shorter too.

    No big surprise that you're shooting better with the .45.

    Edit: Your group size at 10yds is still godawful. More practice, maybe.
  4. submessenger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Assuming good weapon (by which I mean no mechanical issues) and good ammo, I would suggest that you try to concentrate on your surprise trigger break. I had problems in the past shooting a smaller caliber after a larger - I was basically anticipating the recoil, and overcompensating for it, to boot. If your rounds are generally low and to the left, I would say this is the problem.
  5. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Dude, the .22 cartridge is inherently less accurate than the .45.

    Plus you've probably got a better trigger on the .45. The barrel on the Mosquito is shorter too.

    No big surprise that you're shooting better with the .45.

    Edit: Your group size at 10yds is still godawful. More practice, maybe.
    Good point. There is plenty of drift in .22 consistency across brands. It's a low-dollar round for a reason. Barrell length at 10 yards shouldn't make an enormous difference, though. I shoot just as well with a 2" barrel at 10 yards as a 4".

    I suspect he might be "digging" the barrel down on trigger pull, as a reflex to recoil. The complete lack of recoil on .22 will exaggerate the inaccuracy. It also accounts for his "sub-optimal" groups with the .45. (I wasn't gonna call you on it, GJ...)

    another potential culprit would be swaying. Virtually every noob I see at the range focuses so hard on the sights that they don't realize that their whole body is swaying slightly while they try to line up the sights. It's a natural reaction to having an eccentric load on the spine (A weapon at arm's length). The heavier the weapon, the more it resits this sway.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  6. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    Good point. There is plenty of drift in .22 consistency across brands. It's a low-dollar round for a reason. Barrell length at 10 yards shouldn't make an enormous difference, though. I shoot just as well with a 2" barrel at 10 yards as a 4".

    I suspect he might be "digging" the barrel down on trigger pull, as a reflex to recoil. The complete lack of recoil on .22 will exaggerate the inaccuracy. It also accounts for his "sub-optimal" groups with the .45. (I wasn't gonna call you on it, GJ...)

    another potential culprit would be swaying. Virtually every noob I see at the range focuses so hard on the sights that they don't realize that their whole body is swaying slightly while they try to line up the sights. It's a natural reaction to having an eccentric load on the spine (A weapon at arm's length). The heavier the weapon, the more it resits this sway.
    I agree. Barrel length probably doesn't account for much of the difference but the shorter barrel does reduce muzzle velocity which can matter with such a small round, even at shorter distances. There's a reason they put long barrels on .22 bullseye pistols.

    OP - on the .22 vs .45 subject. Imagine standing 20 feet from a target. Try throwing a baseball as hard as you can at the target. Then try throwing a ping pong ball as hard as you can at the target. Which one do you think you'll be more accurate with? The .45 is a bigger, heavier round and is therefore more stable. Plus, you have the previously mentioned manufacturing inconsistencies.

    CCI makes hotter rounds for the .22 you might want to try out.
  7. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 1:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL....I know my groups are pretty bad with the .45...I've only been shooting for maybe 4 months now with about 500rnds through my Springfield. Just like grappling, i.e., mat time, mat time, mat time...I need, range time, range time, range time. I am a NOOB here, admitedley.

    Although, I have been trying to do a lot of research on proper pistiol technique and fundamentals and incorporating what "feels right" when trying to aquire my sight picture based on front sight focus.

    My groups with the .45 may be a bit low and I was attributing that to over-compensation for the recoil or leaning a bit too far forward in my stance. It is interesting that you mention the "sway" as I felt that for the first time when I was shooting last week. Although, when I tried to compensate for the "sway" I think I dropped some of the other fundementals and it all went to **** anyway, group size wise.

    "Ping Pong Ball v. Baseball" is a good example but does that really come in to play at 10yrds indoors. I can see outdoors (I had to hold like 3 feet high a 2 feet to the left to bull my .22 LR (S&W MP 15/22) at 100yds) where your dealing with some slight windage.

    I only chamber the .22 CCI MiniMags in the Sig as they feed without failure consistently (like 1 chimney in 1000 rounds or so).

    I'll try and post my best .22 and best .45 grouping this week so you all can see the placement. I've got a EMP 9mm as well, maybe I'll throw that in the mix too. The .22 is literally all over the place like I'm have a seizure while running though the magazine.

    Thanks guys. How you been Scrapper? Still travelling or are you settled in the NE?

    EDIT: And yes, sorry, the trigger on the .45 is MUCH better than the .22. There is a slight hitch or delay in the .22 trigger that I recognized and have been trying to overcome.
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 3/12/2012 1:29pm at .
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 1:27pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas View Post
    "Ping Pong Ball v. Baseball" is a good example but does that really come in to play at 10yrds indoors. I can see outdoors (I had to hold like 3 feet high a 2 feet to the left to bull my .22 LR at 100yds) where your dealing with some slight windage.
    Yeah, it comes into play. Bullet stability is not just about wind. It's about the flight characteristics of the projectile. It is effected by the weight, shape and material of the bullet, powder load, etc.

    Let me be clear, though. You've got more going on than just the difference between the potential accuracy of a .22 vs. a .45. But your Sig Mosquito will never, ever have the same potential accuracy as a quality 1911 in .45.
    Last edited by Devil; 3/12/2012 1:31pm at .
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 2:23pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks....ahhh....my group measurments are also wrong I think. I was using "furthest out to furthest out", esentially that would give a total diameter for the group size of about 3.5" - 4.5".

    Center to Center and Center to Center would put it at about half that, or 1.75" - 2.25"...is that any better. See the picture below. Would this be about a 3" group or about 1.5", i.e., "furthest to furthest" or "average of center to furthest and center to furthest" for proper group measurment. (this isn't my group or gun, just a picture I found for example sake)

  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 2:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The larger number is your group size.

    Center to center means you measure the distance from the center of one hole to the center of the next hole, using the two holes farthest from one another.

    The best way to precisely measure group size is with a caliper. Measure the outside to outside distance of your two holes that are farthest apart, then subtract the diameter of the bullet.
    Last edited by Devil; 3/12/2012 2:37pm at .
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