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  1. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 4:30pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    What makes you think so?
    Read posts 31 & 37. Do you disagree or are you applying the method of elenchus to the discussion?
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  2. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 4:34pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    Read posts 31 & 37. Do you disagree or are you applying the method of elenchus to the discussion?
    I get the impression that you find it unthinkable that Kano could have placed any real value on kata. After all, "if it cannot be tested it cannot work" is a common mantra, so there must be an alternate explanation. Well, there is, sort of! Dr. Karl F. Friday writes:

    Few facets of Japanese martial art have been as consistently and ubiquitously misunderstood, even by those who practice them, as kata.
    ...
    Kata are not, for example, intended to be used as a kind of database mechanically applied to specific combat situations...Rather, pattern practice is employed as a tool for teaching and learning principles that underlie the techniques that make up the kata. Once these principles have been absorbed, the tool is to be set aside
    (Skoss, Sword & Spirit, 1999. p. 151, 160-161).

    Dr. Friday goes on to describe the organic relationship warring and musha shugyo had with kata early on and how this became diminished (i.e. lessened but still occuring) beyond the warring states period. He notes that in peacetime there were increasingly fewer veterans and more schools of "flowery swordsmanship", leading to a Kashima stylist's popularization of protected sparring in the early 1700s, making the kata vs. competition debate over three centuries old.

    The relationship between veterans and Koryu also has a parallel in Donn F. Drager, a US Marine who fought in the Korean War before becoming one of the first and finest American Judoka of his time. Draeger later became a Koryu Budoka, led a reniassance in Hoplology, and did many other great things for the martial arts. A contention of his was that combative disciplines couldn't use sportive competition. This sentiment seems to be reflected in modern military and law enforcement training with firearms.

    This much, in addition to Kano's mission to contribute something truly sophisticated to education, leads me to conclude that his inclusion of kata in the syllabus was much more than just a nod to Japan's past. Rather, that Judo's kata is an appropriation of the heart and soul of classical Japanese arts. The dichotomy of kata and randori is especially appropriate in light of his scholastic prowess; kata encapsulates the Confucian model, whereas randori reflects what we might call a western one. They both have weaknesses, but together they can form something more dynamic and strong than one alone. This seems consistent with Jita Kyoei.
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 3/15/2012 4:50pm at .
  3. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 5:38pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    You make an excellent argument and I agree with it completely, with the exception of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    I get the impression that you find it unthinkable that Kano could have placed any real value on kata.
    I make no judgement on Kano's thoughts on Kata itself, I was commenting more on the techniques with which he decided to incorporate into Judo. This would be evidenced by say nage-no-kata (the first kata to appear in the Kodokan syllabus) which incorporates techniques that can be trained both randori and kata. This kata would be in line with your argument

    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    The dichotomy of kata and randori is especially appropriate in light of his scholastic prowess;...... They both have weaknesses, but together they can form something more dynamic and strong than one alone. This seems consistent with Jita Kyoei.
    Contrast this with kime no kata which features predominantly (if not exclusively) techniques which are not practiced in randori nor seem to appear anywhere else in the Judo syllabus.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 5:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    You make an excellent argument and I agree with it completely, with the exception of this:

    I make no judgement on Kano's thoughts on Kata itself, I was commenting more on the techniques with which he decided to incorporate into Judo. This would be evidenced by say nage-no-kata (the first kata to appear in the Kodokan syllabus) which incorporates techniques that can be trained both randori and kata. This kata would be in line with your argument

    Contrast this with kime no kata which features predominantly (if not exclusively) techniques which are not practiced in randori nor seem to appear anywhere else in the Judo syllabus.
    I wouldn't get into the Kano Kata thing mate. Its a goddamn minefield and there's a million ill informed opinions form poor quality sources ready to blew up in everyone's face.

    Oh and to anyone reading the above about to start quoting mind over muscle at me, don't bother. Its a twist on a twist on an interpretation.

    Its safe to say Kano and kata is a field that still needs research and conclusions can't be drawn definitively on either side.
  5. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 5:49pm


     

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    @cualltaigh: So you're saying that if waza are omitted from randori, they practically aren't a part of Judo and/or aren't effectively trained?

    @judoka_uk: I didn't know the English Mind Over Muscle was erm, crippled twice over? So if I ever get around to reading the original, that'll still be problematic?
  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 5:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    @judoka_uk: I didn't know the English Mind Over Muscle was erm, crippled twice over? So if I ever get around to reading the original, that'll still be problematic?
    Its not a book Kano wrote, its a collection of various writings by Kano over a 50 odd year period which were selected, then translated and then cobbled together by the author -Watson.

    So Watson imposed his own source selection bias on what writings of Kano he chose to include, his own interpretation on how he translated those sources and his own interpretation and bias on how he presented those sources to form the narrative he weaves in the book.
  7. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 6:11pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    [QUOTE=DARPAChief;2671983]@cualltaigh: So you're saying that if waza are omitted from randori, they practically aren't a part of Judo and/or aren't effectively trained?

    No.

    And, taking up some recent good advice I've received, I'm leaving it at that.

    *backs away from the Judo sacred ground*
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 6:11pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Its not a book Kano wrote, its a collection of various writings by Kano over a 50 odd year period which were selected, then translated and then cobbled together by the author -Watson.

    So Watson imposed his own source selection bias on what writings of Kano he chose to include, his own interpretation on how he translated those sources and his own interpretation and bias on how he presented those sources to form the narrative he weaves in the book.
    Ahhh just like the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
  9. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2012 6:14pm


     

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    I just realized what I thought was the original Mind is in fact, Kanō Jigorō, watakushi no shōgai to jūdō (My Life and Judo, by Jigoro Kano) published in 1972, one of at least five works attributed to him posthumously! Who'da thunk a pre-war academic would have something in common with Tupac Shakur?
  10. cualltaigh is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2012 5:54am


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    @cualltaigh: So you're saying that if waza are omitted from randori, they practically aren't a part of Judo and/or aren't effectively trained?
    [beer]First of all, I apologise to judoka_uk, I know you tried to warn me but I couldn't help myself, I absolve from all the butthurt you're about to lay down upon me.

    [QUOTE=DARPAChief;2671983]@cualltaigh: So you're saying that if waza are omitted from randori, they practically aren't a part of Judo and/or aren't effectively trained?

    Actually no, this has no bearing whatsoever to what I was saying. Go back to the thread. My argument was that Kano's innovation to "jujutsu" was to discard what couldn't be trained "alive" and focus on what could.
    [/beer]
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
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