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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 5:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Really? I could have sworn that Judo was entirely compromised of JJJ techniques. All of which were from separate ryu that Kano incorporated.
    Kano didn't really like newaza he even wrote a polemic against it.

    Newaza is the Degeneration of Jūdō

    The victory of the Second Higher School [Sendai] in their jūdō match with the First Higher School [Tokyo] despite having very few black belts [yūdansha] has unexpectedly brought forth criticism of the Kōdōkan’s system of promotion thus Kanō Shihan gave a lecture at 10 a.m. on the 9th [June 9, 1918] about the true meaning of shōbu (victory and defeat) in jūdō: “The aim of jūdō is both as a method of attack and defense and also the training of the body and the cultivation of the mind. The true ability of jūdō emerges when one faces a life or death situation and victory or defeat on the tatami (tatami no ue no shōbu) cannot be a basis for criticism. From what I hear the Sendai side [the Second Higher School] has been secretly studying only newaza as the key to victory but this is mistake for true life and death situations (shinken shōbu) are decided by tachiwaza and newaza is but a small part (hon no ichibu). Newaza is the degeneration of jūdō (jūdō no daraku) and should be outlawed (kinzubeki) as a method.”
    The Judo magazine during the 1910s and early 1920s regularly featured anti-newaza articles.

    During the late 1920s and early 1930s Kano softened his position and became more accepting of the innovations in newaza.

    However, in 1943, 5 years after Kano's death, the official rules of Judo banned the triangle choke and all leg grabbing techniques.

  2. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:10pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fun fact: 9th and 10th dan Judoka are actually just wearing red tape.
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    It is really a bit of a red herring to say that BJJ comes from Judo since BJJ has de-emphasized virtually everything that was in Kano's original synthesis, and focuses primarily on Ne Waza that Kano imported from a single JJJ school after Judo was well underway.
    BJJ comes from pre-1945 Judo, which is different in focus than post-1945 Judo.
    It has to do with opening the Kodokan after WWII under supervision of General McArthur.

    The Fusen Ryu claim as origen of the Judo newaza (which I believed as truth, until recently) is a little debunk in the last few years. BKR pointed that out and I started to do some reading again on the Judoforum.

    In short: the groundfighting existed in Kano Ju Jutsu/Judo before Fusen Ryu was added.
    Some even claim that a lot of the additional groundfighting techniques came from exposing the first Judoka to Wrestlers when they were doing their challenge promotion worldtours in the beginning of the last century.

    There's a lot of information on Judoforum (that supports every version, unfortunally), so I would suggest to keep a critical mind when reading there and ask Judoka_uk or BKR to point you to some great info.
    I just do some wild searches there, start to read and find some great gems...and a lot of manure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:25pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    Freestyle sparring was popular in Meiji-era Jujutsu schools well before Kano. I believe the story goes that Kano gets his Menkyo in Kito Ryu when his teacher cannot throw him anymore in randori, isn't that right?
    I did not mean to imply that Kano invented randori, rather that he would only train techniques that could safely be trained in an alive manner (such as in randori). Hence from the first lesson, a Judoka learns a technique and soon applies it in randori.

    I believe you are right with the Kito-ryu reference. There is also reference to randori in his Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu training. However, both of these styles (even at that time) you would first learn kata and over time progress to a level of competency before randori was introduced. There were also many techniques within the syllabus that were not applied in randori.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  5. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Really? I could have sworn that Judo was entirely compromised of JJJ techniques. All of which were from separate ryu that Kano incorporated.
    I don't think that's entirely accurate. Kano modified most of the techniques to facilitate randori (throwing back-to-the-mat instead of face down); some techniques are from gymnastics; some techniques are from wrestling. Kano's original synthesis had very under developed Ne Waza, and the Ne Waza that grew into BJJ came from one particular rival dojo, and not a specific ryu (ie, not the Ryu that dojo operated under).
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:42pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^Jnp, this guy can be worse than me. Tread carefully.

    Oh and this is EXACTLY why there are people that don't care.
  7. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    ^^^Jnp, this guy can be worse than me.
    I am so very much worse than you.

    Tread carefully.
    I tread carefully around the two of you, not the other way around.

    Oh and this is EXACTLY why there are people that don't care.
    My post? Really?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    BJJ comes from pre-1945 Judo, which is different in focus than post-1945 Judo.
    It has to do with opening the Kodokan after WWII under supervision of General McArthur.

    The Fusen Ryu claim as origen of the Judo newaza (which I believed as truth, until recently) is a little debunk in the last few years. BKR pointed that out and I started to do some reading again on the Judoforum.

    In short: the groundfighting existed in Kano Ju Jutsu/Judo before Fusen Ryu was added.
    Some even claim that a lot of the additional groundfighting techniques came from exposing the first Judoka to Wrestlers when they were doing their challenge promotion worldtours in the beginning of the last century.

    There's a lot of information on Judoforum (that supports every version, unfortunally), so I would suggest to keep a critical mind when reading there and ask Judoka_uk or BKR to point you to some great info.
    I just do some wild searches there, start to read and find some great gems...and a lot of manure.
    I have seen quite a lot refuting that Fusen Ryu contributed any Ne Waza to Kano's system, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about a single Osaka based Dojo (nominally Fusen Ryu) that developed its own Ne Waza.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Lindz is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    I did not mean to imply that Kano invented randori, rather that he would only train techniques that could safely be trained in an alive manner (such as in randori). Hence from the first lesson, a Judoka learns a technique and soon applies it in randori.

    Umm no kime no kata created in 1888 (during kano's life)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kime-no-kata
    contains all kinds of deadly you can't do in randori
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 6:53pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post

    My post? Really?
    Nope, pretty much everything after DTs post.
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