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  1. Mister is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 9:05am


     Style: Injured

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, guess what time it is.
  2. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 9:34am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Basically what IiF said.

    JJJ has things to offer that BJJ doesn't. However, people who want to learn BJJ are not going to get it from JJJ. So, why care.

    I train with a stick guy who got his weapons training through JJJ. Our training is alive and pretty much has DBMA blended all through it. So you can't call it JJJ any more. But the point is, he wouldn't have got that training through BJJ.

    Just depends on what you are looking for. BJJ no longer really looks or trains anything like most JJJ so there really is no reason to honor them per se. Kind of like how American Football doesn't give credit to it's Rugby roots.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 9:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Time View Post
    It seems over my past few years of training in Japanese Jujutsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that nearly no one doing BJJ actually knows about the lineage of BJJ. For example Jujutsu turned to Judo turned to BJJ. I really think that it deserves to see more attention from the martial arts community, what are your thoughts on the subject?
    1)

    "Japanese Ju Jutsu" doesn't exist or better said, there are two versions: Gendai and Koryu.

    Koryu is for the schools that predate the Meiji Restoration.
    Gendai is for the schools that postdate the Meiji Restoration.
    In the Meiji period the Samurai class in Japanese society was abolished, so Koryu schools are considered Samurai schools.

    Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo, which itself descents from (the unarmed part of) two Koryu schools: Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu.
    Since most Koryo schools focus on the Samurai warfare techniques they are primairly weapon based styles instead of empty hand techniques, therefor they are trained in kata form (free randori with katana's wouldn't be the best idea for keeping your students in one piece).

    Gendai Ju jutsu is just a mix of Karate, Judo and Aikido with the best part removed: randori.
    It's also more an Euro-American creation than a Japanese creation and where all the styles postdate the creation of BJJ. It was never an ancestor of BJJ.

    So if a BJJer wants to learn about its heritage, he/she should learn Judo. If he/she than wants to learn more, it would evolve travelling to Japan to learn several Koryo arts that using drills and kata, where the focus doesn't lie on fighting, but om preservation of a past way and personal development.

    2)

    If you want to learn a decent Gendai Ju jutsu style, there are two ways to go:
    - look for a Ju Jutsu club, where the members spar and enter tournaments (Sport Ju Jutsu)
    - train Knockdown Karate, Judo, Aikido (Yoshinkan or Shodokan) seperate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 9:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trad JJ can have effective techniques that are only safe to be trained through compliant training. Pain based come a-longs, certain locks and so on and so forth

    BJJ doesn't really touch on these

    Having said that without live training to conditioning fight or flight, fast twitch reflexes and adrenaline dump - plus getting somewhat used to getting hit and thrown.

    Complaint training is useless, whereas alive sport training is useful in RSBD scenarios.
  5. evilstan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 3:02pm


     Style: Kendo, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    1)

    "Japanese Ju Jutsu" doesn't exist or better said, there are two versions: Gendai and Koryu.

    Koryu is for the schools that predate the Meiji Restoration.
    Gendai is for the schools that postdate the Meiji Restoration.
    In the Meiji period the Samurai class in Japanese society was abolished, so Koryu schools are considered Samurai schools.

    Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo, which itself descents from (the unarmed part of) two Koryu schools: Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu.
    Since most Koryo schools focus on the Samurai warfare techniques they are primairly weapon based styles instead of empty hand techniques, therefor they are trained in kata form (free randori with katana's wouldn't be the best idea for keeping your students in one piece).

    Gendai Ju jutsu is just a mix of Karate, Judo and Aikido with the best part removed: randori.
    It's also more an Euro-American creation than a Japanese creation and where all the styles postdate the creation of BJJ. It was never an ancestor of BJJ.

    So if a BJJer wants to learn about its heritage, he/she should learn Judo. If he/she than wants to learn more, it would evolve travelling to Japan to learn several Koryo arts that using drills and kata, where the focus doesn't lie on fighting, but om preservation of a past way and personal development.

    2)

    If you want to learn a decent Gendai Ju jutsu style, there are two ways to go:
    - look for a Ju Jutsu club, where the members spar and enter tournaments (Sport Ju Jutsu)
    - train Knockdown Karate, Judo, Aikido (Yoshinkan or Shodokan) seperate.
    this. I started grappling in a style of JJJ and it is what got me into judo and bjj. I am able to hit a lot of the wristlocks and other "JJJ techniques" in randori or rolling now for one simple reason: Judo.

    Learning how to grip fight and throw teaches you how to grip fight and throw. The better I get at judo the better I get at JJJ even though I haven't trained it in years. Simply because Judo is what JJJ became.

  6. DARPAChief is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 4:54pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    Even in legit schools the majority, if not all, the training is drilled compliantly or, at best, semi-compliantly. This was Professor Kano's major innovation, training jujitsu techniques in an alive manner. This has been passed on to BJJ. The aliveness in training is what makes these two so effective and thus popular.
    Freestyle sparring was popular in Meiji-era Jujutsu schools well before Kano. I believe the story goes that Kano gets his Menkyo in Kito Ryu when his teacher cannot throw him anymore in randori, isn't that right?
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 5:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is really a bit of a red herring to say that BJJ comes from Judo since BJJ has de-emphasized virtually everything that was in Kano's original synthesis, and focuses primarily on Ne Waza that Kano imported from a single JJJ school after Judo was well underway.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. DARPAChief is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 5:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can something be a bit of a red herring?
  9. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 5:46pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    It is really a bit of a red herring to say that BJJ comes from Judo since BJJ has de-emphasized virtually everything that was in Kano's original synthesis, and focuses primarily on Ne Waza that Kano imported from a single JJJ school after Judo was well underway.
    Really? I could have sworn that Judo was entirely compromised of JJJ techniques. All of which were from separate ryu that Kano incorporated.
    Last edited by jnp; 3/14/2012 5:50pm at .
    Shut the hell up and train.
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 5:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. If it's misleading, but only moderately so.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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