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  1. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2012 6:26pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    Seriously, what point were you making?
    Just that legislation about no-knock raids isn't as simple as legalizing drugs, because even in those minority of non-drug cases, lives are at stake.

    No-knock raids have direct genesis in busting in before the evidence is destroyed.
    My dad got snatched up in a raid when I was a little kid, for drug related charges, and I didn't see him for years, so I can appreciate how and why these things go down.

    Barring a RICO case where an accountant is eating pages from the ledger, none of those other examples hold - in the case of a domestic, for example, the sound of a crime is probable cause.
    Tgace gave a scenario he said a lot of law enforcement folks encounter, but honestly I don't know how often that kind of thing comes up.

    BY AND LARGE they are used in drug cases. BY AND LARGE, they would go up in smoke if we stopped persecuting people in their home for taking certain recreational drugs, and allowed the legal distribution and manufacture of those drugs with appropriate industrial controls.
    Agreed.
    Yes, there would still be occasionally no-knock executions - and the very rarity of them would increase oversight and precision.
    And there should still be well-discussed procedures on how to handle those minority of instances.
  2. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2012 6:36pm


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    What does crime sound like?

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  3. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2012 6:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    What does crime sound like?

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
    It was in response to a specific circumstance of a domestic incident - If it's a domestic, you either hear it or have a complaint - not the purvey of a warrant. It's not like you go get a bunch of warrants for suspected domestics, set up a domestic abuse sting, pose as a wife and see if the guy hits you, etc.

    The war on drugs is a waste of time. And a drag, man.
  4. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2012 7:38pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You always need a warrant to enter a home or you need to be able to articulate one of the exceptions to the warrant requirement (hot pursuit, exigent circumstances etc). Domestics can often be an easy exception example but that doesn't mean you don't need to consider the 4th amendment simply because its a domestic incident.

    While drug cases do take up a large chunk of warrant applications, there are many other reasons for them too.

    If I'm looking for stolen property in your garage...warrant.

    If I'm in your house on aforesaid domestic and see a drugs on a counter...if I want to check the rest of the house...warrant.

    If I go into the domestic 911 call and find the husband dead and I want to scour the house for evidence....warrant.

    If a neighbor calls 911 because he heard you and your wife arguing and I get there and nobody answers? With nothing other than a report of a verbal argument I better have a warrant.

    But I know where you are coming from...I just like to talk shop. :)

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  5. Charles Brown is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 12:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It should be pretty simple to understand just how stupid this is. How many bad guys do you suppose agree with the police when the police are making an entry into their homes? I'll bet that none of them do. So, who's to decide whether or not the police are legally entitled to make the entries? I'd say that it's probably a bad idea for you to decide whether or not the police are legally entering your home. It will probably lead to your being shot.
  6. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 1:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Brown View Post
    How many bad guys do you suppose agree with the police when the police are making an entry into their homes? I'll bet that none of them do. So, who's to decide whether or not the police are legally entitled to make the entries?
    An impartial judge who will hear the reasons they want a warrant and go from there, as it should be IMHO.
  7. Charles Brown is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 1:24pm

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    And what about the times when a warrant is not required? Are the police now to avoid entering a home without a warrant despite the fact that somebody is getting hurt or killed inside? Is a hot pursuit to be terminated just becauce a suspect enters a home? Are the police supposed to allow evidence to be destroyed to avoid entering a home? You have to think about these things from a practical perspective.
  8. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 2:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Brown View Post
    And what about the times when a warrant is not required? Are the police now to avoid entering a home without a warrant despite the fact that somebody is getting hurt or killed inside? Is a hot pursuit to be terminated just becauce a suspect enters a home?
    If a warrant is not required, then a warrant is not required, so none of those things you mention apply.

    You have to think about these things from a practical perspective.
    Ditto.
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 3:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Brown View Post
    And what about the times when a warrant is not required? Are the police now to avoid entering a home without a warrant despite the fact that somebody is getting hurt or killed inside? Is a hot pursuit to be terminated just becauce a suspect enters a home? Are the police supposed to allow evidence to be destroyed to avoid entering a home? You have to think about these things from a practical perspective.
    I think if you're in the middle of murdering someone in your home, and at the same time the police are busting down your door, you cannot say you *reasonably* believed the police were acting illegally, LOL.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 3:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Self defense. Specifies that a person may use reasonable force against any other person in certain circumstances. Provides that a person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to: (1) protect the person or a third person from unlawful force;
    So now it's the assertion of the body, people can intervene in police actions if they simply feel unlawful force is being used. How would they know?


    When they see it?
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