No Knock Raids, Shooting Back at Police

**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 9:25am

Originally Posted by tgace

Its to early to decipher that wall of text.

While they do happen...and they shouldn't. This black helicopter fear of the cops raiding your home by mistake is hyperbole. Meteors can hit your home too....

I equate it to the nationwide fear of child abduction everytime a news story hits the press. People on the other side of the nation start keeping their kid's indoors over a statistically minuscule occurrence.

Cops lying after a mistaken raid?...accusations without evidence.

A nazi comparison already? I thought it would take a bit longer.

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2 questions.;
Unidentified men enter my property and take positions threatening the life of my animals. I kill 1 of them. Am I now on trial for killing a police officer? resisting arrest? murder? Is it self defense?
Unidentified men burst into my room. I resist. Since i have not been mirandized (yes i do realize that resistance runs the very high risk of being killed) am i resisting arrest? assaulting an officer? (maybe nothing since i have not been charged not LEO identify themselves yet?)

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 1:25pm

Cage, you do realize the Maryland Mayor's drug raid was successful?

They grabbed a 32lb brick of weed from him, after he brought it into the house. Yes they'd already intercepted it, but how would they know it wasn't actually for the wife?

It's possible that that particular delivery was coincidentally the moment when the pot scheme fell apart, by the Mayor getting the package before the intended courier, but regardless someone was FedEx-ing dozens of lbs of weed to them. That's not the wrong home scenario.

So how was it resolved?

A lawsuit was filed in June 2009 against Prince George's County Sheriff Michael Jackson; Detective Shawn Scarlata; the state of Maryland; Prince George's County; and two "John Doe" deputy sheriffs, whose names were not immediately released. In depositions, law enforcement personnel admitted that at least one of the dogs was running away when shot. In January 2011, the suit was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money and various SWAT reforms.

So the unaccountable police settled out-of-court, and made reforms.

**tgace** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 2:00pm

Since i have not been mirandized (yes i do realize that resistance runs the very high risk of being killed) am i resisting arrest? assaulting an officer? (maybe nothing since i have not been charged not LEO identify themselves yet?)

Since you were not mirandized?? What do you think Miranda means?

You aren't one of those people who actually think an arrest isn't "official" unless you are read Miranda? Are you?

Unidentified? Maybe other areas are different, but here the vests/plate carriers emblazoned with POLICE and the yelling of POLICE SEARCH WARRANT! Is pretty identifying.

That Maryland SW was 100% legit...the needless dog shooting was the real issue. There ARE some PD's near me that shoot dogs as routine...I don't agree with it. Sometimes its necessary but sometimes it isn't.

Once again this illustrates the issue with the "reasonably believes" term. The TV impression of policework leads many people to believe some odd things. The "I'm not under arrest unless you Miranda me" is a common one.

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**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 4:14pm

Originally Posted by tgace

Since you were not mirandized?? What do you think Miranda means?

You aren't one of those people who actually think an arrest isn't "official" unless you are read Miranda? Are you?

Unidentified? Maybe other areas are different, but here the vests/plate carriers emblazoned with POLICE and the yelling of POLICE SEARCH WARRANT! Is pretty identifying.

That Maryland SW was 100% legit...the needless dog shooting was the real issue. There ARE some PD's near me that shoot dogs as routine...I don't agree with it. Sometimes its necessary but sometimes it isn't.

Once again this illustrates the issue with the "reasonably believes" term. The TV impression of policework leads many people to believe some odd things. The "I'm not under arrest unless you Miranda me" is a common one.

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No no I do not think that. (about the Miranda rights thing) My point (which relates to the 'unidentified people' statement I made. I know of several Toronto area crimes where a gang pretended to be police officers executing a drug raid.) Is that the 'reasonably believes' term AND the other presumptions made in a no-knock raid make it much more difficult/impossible to place your hand against the wall and do as you are told and allow due process of the courts to validate your innocence guilt. (because property destruction and loss of life cannot be undone.)
I agree with you and i want to be clear i do not believe 'you have not read my miranda rights so i cannot be under arrest.' (and yes i understand that police are almost always very clearly identified) My point is that UNLIKE the more common traffic stop/ warrant = enter concepts the raid may happen WITHOUT warning (which i of course understand is the intention).

@bobyclumsyninja Yes I did know that. But I would point out A)yes he WAS a drug offender . .. but how does that justify the para-military raid done without a warrant off the ASSUMPTION that there was such risk to the officers/integrity of the evidence?.

Also my point remains . . . Is ANYONE actually going to argue that there will NEVER be a mistaken raid? (even though evidence is not required to be proven through the same court-burden as a warrant before-hand.)

**tgace** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 5:11pm

You still didn't explain what you meant with that Miranda question....

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**johnny_cage** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 8:35pm

Ok I will reword.
If someone was to resist against/ attack or harm the police entering does the usual/common charges apply? (as in if you place hands on an officer while resisting = assault etc that kind of thing) [I am actually asking]
During said no-knock raid . . . if an event that antagonizes/threatens or destroys property or life (losing my dogs or having my family members threatened whether my legal actions warranted the police raid or not would make most people wish to/attempt to stop.) does the scenario escalate? (officer down- call in a siege.) or would it be viewed under a military perspective? (ala mission accomplished. threat of violence met with expected level of violence = job done.)

**tgace** · Posted On: 4/08/2012 9:57pm

Reword please. I'm not clear on what you are asking.

I'm still not dropping the Miranda question. Why did you ask about not being read Miranda?

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**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 4/09/2012 12:07am

Originally Posted by johnny_cage

Ok I will reword.
If someone was to resist against/ attack or harm the police entering does the usual/common charges apply? (as in if you place hands on an officer while resisting = assault etc that kind of thing) [I am actually asking]
During said no-knock raid . . . if an event that antagonizes/threatens or destroys property or life (losing my dogs or having my family members threatened whether my legal actions warranted the police raid or not would make most people wish to/attempt to stop.) does the scenario escalate? (officer down- call in a siege.) or would it be viewed under a military perspective? (ala mission accomplished. threat of violence met with expected level of violence = job done.)

I don't know quite what you mean here. If you mean cops bust in yelling freeze or down or whatever, and you don't, it won't go well for you.

I might have missed it. Do police frequently do plain clothes no knock home invasion style raids? Are there instances where no one is identifying themselves, even as people are being subdued?

Are there many instances of this going wrong, beyond the legit mayor's raid? They paid for that, and made changes. Where is the scandal that's driving this?

**BadUglyMagic** · Posted On: 4/09/2012 7:27pm

Originally Posted by tgace

Cops lying after a mistaken raid?...accusations without evidence.

Google Red Dog Atlanta.

What happens in NY state when officers with a valid warrant raid the wrong house. Say the house next to the address on the warrant? If a resident believes they are protecting themselves and respond with force, and assuming they live, are they subject to criminal charges?

**tgace** · Posted On: 4/09/2012 9:26pm

Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic

Google Red Dog Atlanta.

What happens in NY state when officers with a valid warrant raid the wrong house. Say the house next to the address on the warrant? If a resident believes they are protecting themselves and respond with force, and assuming they live, are they subject to criminal charges?

Painting all cops by the actions of a few...when gun grabbers try to paint all gun owners as nutjobs when a shooter runs wild how do you react?

All I can say is that we (LEO's) are not some homogeneous entity who all act the same. You can get greatly different treatment from the PD you have in comparison to the PD's on either side of you (New Orleans PD has been known to have "problems" for a LOOONG time amongst LEO's) . There are some PD's nearby me that I will not answer for.

While I can sometimes see how another officers actions can be justified...thats through the lens of MY experience. I know full well that it's possible that the other officers actions could be 100% wrong.

As to what happens in NY. People always look for a clear cut reply when the only honest answer is "it depends". What are the particulars of your scenario?

Article 35.27 of our penal law says that its unlawful to use force against an LEO to resist arrest...authorized or unauthorized...when it would reasonably appear the latter is a police or peace officer.

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