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  1. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2012 8:41pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    2 Man Attack is literally sparring with one after the other. If it was oneperson it would go too slow since most techniques rely on takedowns. Attacker 1may throw a straight punch, defender blocks and throws attacker to the ground,straight after attacker2 may grab defenders hair, defender uses an armbar topull them to the ground and wrist hold until grip is broken, and so on.
    If the first person hits you square in the face and stuffs the throw, do you keep sparring with him? Or does each person "spar" for only one move? Because that's a drill, not sparring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    Iíve found this school works for me,there is alot of techniques.
    Does it work for you in the sense that it has improved your competition results? Or do you just mean you subjectively approve of all the techniques you say there "is"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    If you canít do everything perfect you donít get ablack belt, every black belt I know can do everything perfect
    This is what I meant by definition of "perfect". In the real world, different people have different games, different preferred techniques, and, always, techniques they are NOT competitive at. I would expect someone like judoka_uk to be able to explain any judo technique well, but not execute all of them perfectly. I use judoka_uk as an example because I think I remember him mentioning which of his techniques he was satisfied with his performance of, and which he wasn't, because he (or whoever I'm thinking of) has HIGHER STANDARDS THAN YOU. Seriously, when you talk about perfection are you really saying you think your instructors can PERFECTLY apply any boxing, judo and jiujitsu technique when it counts (ie spontaneously against resistance)? This kind of statement leads us to believe that you equate successful compliant drills or demonstrations with mastery, which is about the worst thing you can say here.

    Sorry again for the needling, but it's hard to understand what kind of gym this is when you say this alongside great stuff like "lots of boxing sparring". I assume the boxing is real sparring (if low-quality, sorry for the guess but I'm just being honest about my expectations of boxing at a school where no-one competes in boxing) because that's kind of hard to mess with and misrepresent. (Wait, does anyone training there compete in full-contact striking or MMA?)
  2. The Cap is offline
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    ORNYTHORINQUE!... BOIT-SANS-SOIF!... BACHI-BOUZOUK!

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2012 9:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright Pineapple, ready? I've new here too, so I've developed much less of an edge than judoka_uk has and you can take this all as a friendly attempt to expose you to my point of view (because I'm right kid):

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    Unless your saying “Can you throw someone who expects the throw and isresisting” then of course not, not many people can unless they have extremestrength.
    After reading that comment, I'd like you to explain this to me:



    Enson Inouie is featured in that video, doing uchi mata. He always (very often) does uchi mata. Everyone knows he does uchi mata. People who want to beat him train to stop his uchi mata. Yet he lands it. In competition, full-contact, against someone that doesn't want him to and is actively trying to stop him. Many judoka can throw like this. Not because they have extreme strength, but because there exist methods to throw people and they have mastered them in the appropriate situation. The appropriate situation being one in which your opponent doesn't want you to do what you're trying to and is constantly trying to foil you.

    You describe a school that sounds like it only ever trains its art at less than full-contact (competition intensity); let me explain to you why that's a negative thing: knowledge we can be certain about is knowledge we gain empirically, through observation of what it is that actually occurs in the situations we are attempting to describe. This is true for martial arts, and in this way martial arts are analogous to any other science. In the study of any science, when one holds a hypothesis or theory with no previous experience to substantiate it, one puts the hypothesis through experiment to observe its accuracy and reach an appropriate conclusion. To conclude a martial arts technique is effective by only testing it against an opponent who is going to let you get away with it in any measure is to reach a conclusion with inappropriate test conditions. It is essentially the same as concluding that all water left in a glass will freeze by only observing glasses of water left outside in Chibougamau in January (that's -40c kids). Full-contact competition is the appropriate testing condition you should be using for your experiment, because no fight is ever going to happen in a compliant setting.

    It is also often inappropriate to believe in the effectiveness of your techniques based on another's experience ("sensei did this on the street once!"). There are too many variables involved in the fight game, your body type being a big one. What works for someone else may not work for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    The techniques are self defence tested, the strikes are held back to a limit to not injure the partner, yet they are expected to look strong and make contact (Might sound lame, would you punch your partner in the face or break his collar bones).
    Yes, yes I would. Not to learn the technique, not to drill it, but to practice and make sure I know it. Of course if you always hit full-contact you may run out of training partners quick. This is why I practice judo: I fight with techniques that rarely maim badly, but allow me to control my opponent enough so that maiming him badly is an option of mine (assuming his uchi mata sukashi isn't perfected). Saves training partners and makes me pretty damn effective in a scrap.

    What does this all mean? Well, it means that rating aliveness and techniques highly without having competition to back it up isn't going to go over well with readers here. By competing you learn how you rate in the fight game, and if you don't do this you lack authority and your opinions aren't going to be held in high esteem.
    Last edited by The Cap; 3/03/2012 9:52pm at . Reason: spellcheck
  3. Pineapple is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 4:36pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ugh,

    @judoka, you are being a ****. You are from England not Australia so how do you know how things work here???? I've trained with guys who have done competition Judo for like 10 years and hold a Blue belt. Why? because its competition based, most schools here don't care about teaching, they just want their students to win, so its learning the same 8 throws every class and very rarely any others, when I did Competition Judo I had to teach myself 4 throws from a book for the grading to green belt.

    I never said I was an instructor or a coach, I am currently studying a Degree in Sports Science and hold a certificate 3 in fitness, which would make me qualified to tech physical exercises. Like I said earlier, if I am to instruct techniques its either yelling numbers out fornt of the class whiel focusing on my own techniques or helping teach the children (Which was also a requestment at my prev Judo Clubs).

    So people don't think I'm 12, litte background experience.
    When I was 13 I started attending a Judo class, wasn't too bad except for the fact they had a star child who got all the attention. I learnt the basics and never went really far. after about 6 months I left as a orange belt and took part in a boxing class, every now and then I would spend a term at Judo and take boxing off, nto once did I take both off.
    When I was 16 I got back into Judo fully and started to love the art, I went to Ippon Judo club and stayed there about a year. Problem was there weren't many people good to train with in the class. At about the same time I started at PM Academy for an extra class and there were heaps of people my age. I learnt new throws and techniques and started to prefer it.
    About 6 months later I attended a Taekwondo class for several months, enjoyed it until I reached the grading. Wasnt the nerves I hated it was the poor committment people were giving. At PM Academy the Green Belts looked amazing to me, at the Taekwondo school a Red belt couldn't kick properly to break a board. I was very dissapointed with the standards and nearly shat myself when the board broke, not because of the side kick, but because her foot fell onto the board after the failed kick. She got her Black tip.
    Throughout these years, I tried out Wing Chun, mmany boxing clubs, 4 Taekwondo Schools and 5 Judo classes. I constantly found myself dissapointed. In the taekwondo school, I learnt ALL of the grading requirements first lesson, by the next lesson I expected more techniques. At PM Academy took me 3 months to learn everything and even go through everything, until the Senseis were happy with my work.
    I did go back to Judo at one point about a year and a half ago to learn new throws that I knew I wouldn't learn for a while at PM Academy and to get better at them, eventually I decided I'm giving up on Comp Judo clubs and took up another PM class on a seperate day.
    Very recently I've taken a MMA class and I find my strong part is my grappling, I never learnt grappling at Judo clubs, not well anyway. When my partner went to the ground in a comp, I would always stand, even though I over rated the grappling in the review, I've learnt alot, (yes you can grapple at 100% in a class, what a silly question).


    People seem to be all angry thinking "PM Academy probably doesnt have high standards." I sent the link to the website, that has a few brief summaries to why the club isnt a competition club and wht its goals are. As for belt rankings, I don't believe you need much Judo competition experience to gain a black belt even if you train at a Comp Judo school, seems you just need to know all the throws perfectly. (Yes I use the words perfectly, I don't mean "Mastered the artform" I mean more on the lines of "They will never forget how to do it well").

    I've grappled and sparred with plenty of black belts in Judo, I know the standards the majority give. I admit they will always be many steps ahead of me due to their competition experience, yet the techniques I am taught at PM Academy arent for competition, some throws start off with an elbow to to the midsection, or a punch to the stomach, things that would put the opponent off guard. In the black belt class they train them up to competition standard, why they don't do it earlier I'm not sure, its how everythign was written adn designed.

    Also I don't get the comments saying "I would punch them as hard as I could in the face," at PCYC boxing they kick you out if you don't have your guard up while sparring. That wasnt the tough class I've ever been to. MMA same sort of thing, no club wants their students getting badly hurt, I'm not going to say "stand there so I can punch you in the face" even with gloves on.

    I don't what else to say, alot of questions I've answered already.

    Also @The Cap, you probably have the most interesting post. I agree competitions help improvement, we just don't, doesnt make the club worse. We train in full contact boxing, we dont go to actual matches, not many people want to. Alot of people who come don't want to fight, they do it to learn new things, self improvement and physical exercise. If people get angry, I'm going to stop replying, I'm trying not to offend anyone, yet everyones making angry accusations, yet you would really have to see a class to understand what I'm saying, that goes with most clubs.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 5:20pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    ugh,

    @judoka, you are being a ****. You are from England not Australia so how do you know how things work here???? I've trained with guys who have done competition Judo for like 10 years and hold a Blue belt. Why? because its competition based, most schools here don't care about teaching, they just want their students to win, so its learning the same 8 throws every class and very rarely any others, when I did Competition Judo I had to teach myself 4 throws from a book for the grading to green belt.

    I never said I was an instructor or a coach, I am currently studying a Degree in Sports Science and hold a certificate 3 in fitness, which would make me qualified to tech physical exercises. Like I said earlier, if I am to instruct techniques its either yelling numbers out fornt of the class whiel focusing on my own techniques or helping teach the children (Which was also a requestment at my prev Judo Clubs).

    So people don't think I'm 12, litte background experience.
    When I was 13 I started attending a Judo class, wasn't too bad except for the fact they had a star child who got all the attention. I learnt the basics and never went really far. after about 6 months I left as a orange belt and took part in a boxing class, every now and then I would spend a term at Judo and take boxing off, nto once did I take both off.
    When I was 16 I got back into Judo fully and started to love the art, I went to Ippon Judo club and stayed there about a year. Problem was there weren't many people good to train with in the class. At about the same time I started at PM Academy for an extra class and there were heaps of people my age. I learnt new throws and techniques and started to prefer it.
    About 6 months later I attended a Taekwondo class for several months, enjoyed it until I reached the grading. Wasnt the nerves I hated it was the poor committment people were giving. At PM Academy the Green Belts looked amazing to me, at the Taekwondo school a Red belt couldn't kick properly to break a board. I was very dissapointed with the standards and nearly shat myself when the board broke, not because of the side kick, but because her foot fell onto the board after the failed kick. She got her Black tip.
    Throughout these years, I tried out Wing Chun, mmany boxing clubs, 4 Taekwondo Schools and 5 Judo classes. I constantly found myself dissapointed. In the taekwondo school, I learnt ALL of the grading requirements first lesson, by the next lesson I expected more techniques. At PM Academy took me 3 months to learn everything and even go through everything, until the Senseis were happy with my work.
    I did go back to Judo at one point about a year and a half ago to learn new throws that I knew I wouldn't learn for a while at PM Academy and to get better at them, eventually I decided I'm giving up on Comp Judo clubs and took up another PM class on a seperate day.
    Very recently I've taken a MMA class and I find my strong part is my grappling, I never learnt grappling at Judo clubs, not well anyway. When my partner went to the ground in a comp, I would always stand, even though I over rated the grappling in the review, I've learnt alot, (yes you can grapple at 100% in a class, what a silly question).

    People seem to be all angry thinking "PM Academy probably doesnt have high standards." I sent the link to the website, that has a few brief summaries to why the club isnt a competition club and wht its goals are. As for belt rankings, I don't believe you need much Judo competition experience to gain a black belt even if you train at a Comp Judo school, seems you just need to know all the throws perfectly. (Yes I use the words perfectly, I don't mean "Mastered the artform" I mean more on the lines of "They will never forget how to do it well").

    I've grappled and sparred with plenty of black belts in Judo, I know the standards the majority give. I admit they will always be many steps ahead of me due to their competition experience, yet the techniques I am taught at PM Academy arent for competition, some throws start off with an elbow to to the midsection, or a punch to the stomach, things that would put the opponent off guard. In the black belt class they train them up to competition standard, why they don't do it earlier I'm not sure, its how everythign was written adn designed.

    Also I don't get the comments saying "I would punch them as hard as I could in the face," at PCYC boxing they kick you out if you don't have your guard up while sparring. That wasnt the tough class I've ever been to. MMA same sort of thing, no club wants their students getting badly hurt, I'm not going to say "stand there so I can punch you in the face" even with gloves on.

    I don't what else to say, alot of questions I've answered already.

    Also @The Cap, you probably have the most interesting post. I agree competitions help improvement, we just don't, doesnt make the club worse. We train in full contact boxing, we dont go to actual matches, not many people want to. Alot of people who come don't want to fight, they do it to learn new things, self improvement and physical exercise. If people get angry, I'm going to stop replying, I'm trying not to offend anyone, yet everyones making angry accusations, yet you would really have to see a class to understand what I'm saying, that goes with most clubs.
    You place more importance on your words than anyone here. Do what you feel is necessary, but no one will miss you if you stop posting.


    Oh and angry is the person who just typed nearly 1000 words basically saying "**** off"
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 5:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    ugh,

    @judoka, you are being a ****.
    Yup, I'm a ****, but I'm a **** who's qualified to make judgements on Judo.

    You're **** who's not qualified to say anything about Judo, Judo techniques, how to teach Judo and whose opinion on anything to do with Judo is worth about as much as one of the hairs in my arse crack.

    You came to our community and made a host of lofty claims about your understanding of Judo and the Judo practiced at your illegitimate Judo club.

    When pressed on your credentials and qualifications to assess Judo techniques and the quality of Judo coaching you were found to be utterly lacking.

    You need to shut the **** up and go train at a proper club, then in a few years when you get a real black belt from a real Judo club. Then you can talk about how you 'understand how to teach throws' and 'know teh real Judo.

    Until then no one is going to take your unqualified, beginner opinions seriously. And rightly so.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 5:33pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So people don't think I'm 12, litte background experience.
    When I was 13 I started attending a Judo class, wasn't too bad except for the fact they had a star child who got all the attention. I learnt the basics and never went really far. after about 6 months I left as a orange belt and took part in a boxing class, every now and then I would spend a term at Judo and take boxing off, nto once did I take both off.
    When I was 16 I got back into Judo fully and started to love the art, I went to Ippon Judo club and stayed there about a year. Problem was there weren't many people good to train with in the class. At about the same time I started at PM Academy for an extra class and there were heaps of people my age. I learnt new throws and techniques and started to prefer it.
    Now, tell everyone your exact age. That way they'll understand why this part is funny.
  7. Wing-Kwan-Fu is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 6:22pm


     Style: Standup, Ground-fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    because its competition based, most schools here don't care about teaching, they just want their students to win
    I've met guys who trained at "**** the belts" judo schools. They are fantastic fighters (I have the bone fragments in my foot to prove it). Turns out you HAVE to learn in order to win! In fact competition is a much better way to ensure that you have learnt, compared to trying to judge your performance in friendly sparring against people who, for all you know, are **** competitors (even if they have a black belt which, as you mentioned, can sometimes just mean they know the techniques intellectually, depending on the belt-giver). You can talk all you want about your ample judo experience, but it doesn't mean anything to us if you still think like this. We don't trust your judgement, sorry. Don't take it personally...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    the techniques I am taught at PM Academy arent for competition, some throws start off with an elbow to to the midsection, or a punch to the stomach, things that would put the opponent off guard.
    It's great to punch someone before throwing them. But if it's taught as part of the throw, well, we've seen this time and time again. It results in ineffective training--can you do a hundred repetitions of the throw if you have to elbow the guy every time? Maybe you guys find a way to make it work, but this kind of muddled, improvised, un-competition-testable technique is characteristic of bad schools teaching wishful thinking. Besides, the standard way--using kuzushi to set up the throw--works! It works great, even against people who train to stop it! Your techniques, well...you have a policy of not finding out how well they work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    In the black belt class they train them up to competition standard
    How the hell would you know that? Everything you've said seems to indicate this is a hopeful guess, or blind trust in your school's claims. You've trained with judoka who have black fabric around their waist, and done well sometimes, you said. That does not qualify you to judge what real high-level grappling looks like. If your black belts had competition records then you could make this claim. (Also, what the hell is competition standard? Local smoker-type competition level? Or do you mean they are all Olympic-level grapplers?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pineapple View Post
    competitions help improvement, we just don't, doesnt make the club worse
    Oh but it does! Just consider that MAYBE, MAYBE it does. I know it would be a huge about-face for you...but if you're not interested in trying out our way of thinking I have no idea why you're here.

    Anyway, no one's angry, don't worry! Some are just overly dismissive because we don't think you'll listen anyway. Sorry judoka_uk's a bit of a dick, but look up some of his articles about judo. He knows the everloving **** out of what he's talking about...and you would do well to ignore your instincts and trust the obnoxious fucker.

    Your school sounds like it is halfway between what we're hoping for and...what we're not hoping for. For example, I love that you spar boxing, but the wording on the website seems like it's from some kind of "anti-boxing" mindset:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.petermortonjujitsu.org.au/standards.htm
    Boxing is taught only at a senior level. A student is taught basic movements and how to defend against a boxer.
    If you keep on:

    a) trying to show that your years of experience mean anything (we have no proof that you're skilled, and some indication that you've been misled)

    or b) trying to argue the logic of your school's competition stance, which is antithetical to this website's ethos and always will be,

    you will get nowhere here and waste your time. The only thing you could bring here to sway us now would be video evidence showing that, hey, these guys do know what they're doing, against all odds! Then we would say, too bad you guys have such silly ways of thinking, but at least you have the skills. I could only find one video with the Peter Morton name: footage of ground fighting at a seminar. Not inspiring...a guy and a girl are rolling, it looks like they both have black belts, but the girl sweeps the guy and then holds mount with what looks like white-belt proficiency: she has her legs all wide. I don't even know if those are black belts at your school; are they?

    Boy I'm a long-winded pedant.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 6:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wing-Kwan-Fu View Post
    Sorry judoka_uk's a bit of a dick, but look up some of his articles about judo. He knows the everloving **** out of what he's talking about...
    Don't insult me like that.

    I'm not a bit of a dick.

    I'm a massive dick.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 6:37pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright, let me save time on the conjecture about his experience. He started training off and on since he was 12.

    He's newly turned nineteen.
  10. Pineapple is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2012 9:00pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This just feels like trolling. Once again I'm faced with statements I've already explained or the website contains which I gave a link to. Like I said you have to train to understand how the club works, someone told me to make a review, I made one.

    http://www.petermortonjujitsu.org.au/frog.htm

    A few awards the founder has won and a brief description on his life. Perhaps you will have some respect for someone who has accomplished so much, after blindly insulting him.
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