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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    Well I think throwing, punching and contact are certainly more alive than what some Aikido dojo's claim to do ie non resistant, zero strikes and such and as yet I am especially unsure of ki and the no touch throws, although I can see how they may happen by fluke so to speak.
    Let me try again. Aliveness is defined very specifically on this website and in many circles. Trying to alter or morph the meaning doesn't make your opinion about the definition correct. Basically, it is a weak argument or excuse, used by many TMAers, to validate sub-par training. More alive is like saying "I am a little bit pregnant." You either train alive or you don't. There is no halfway. If you let someone throw MMA punches and then he stops to LET YOU finish a technique it is a drill. People say it is better and I will always disagree. If I dance around, throw punches and then give you my wrist all we did was add cardio to a dead pattern.

    It is only a variation of "here grab my wrist."

    Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to claim my Aikido is teh d3adly as some put it, I just don't think its fair for the art to be trashed all the time because it has been overun by the pacifists seeking harmony. I think (know) that Aikido can be used effectively and if your in a especialy bad mood can do some damage to somebody.
    Life isn't fair.

    As for the video evidence or it didn't happen bit, I will immediately employ my own personal film crew to follow my every move. No I won't - that was a joke.
    Weird, you mean there are over a MILLION personal video crews that follow people around? Wow, so that's how youtube was created.

    That's sarcasm by the way.
  2. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:13am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Can you apply your techniques to someone who never rushes in blindly, who fakes and feints and times his attacks to when you are most vulnerable, who responds to your techniques not by stiffening up or trying to muscle but by doing his best to counter, who never feeds you the techniques you have easy responses scripted to but always tries to get you with something that (if possible) you genuinely cannot deal with? If you train that kind of thing, then you’re training to apply techniques against an opponent. If one of you is designated uke and the other tori, then that’s clearly not the case, as the winner and loser are largely predetermined.
    This ^^ is kinda like what we do. One is uke and one is tori as in uke attcks
    Then that’s not what you do. What I was trying to emphasise is that there should not be a predetermined uke and tori. I’m not denying that there are different kinds and degrees of uke-tori training, but if the distinction exists (other than, post hoc, as an observation of who ended up throwing whom), then clearly both parties are not trying to “win” in the same way. If they were, how could you say who’s uke and who’s tori?
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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  3. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:13am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ it is fake,

    I'm not trying to change what 'alive' means I just didn't understand at first - my bad.

    Read my last post, I think we posted at the same time so you may have missed it? When we freestyle/randori/spar/whatever we don't throw a punch combo and then stop and say here's my wrist, far from it.

    Again I am not some Aikido crusader hell bent on changing all your minds on the art I am just trying to say its not as wishy washy as a lot of people think!
  4. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:14am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Then that’s not what you do. What I was trying to emphasise is that there should not be a predetermined uke and tori. I’m not denying that there are different kinds and degrees of uke-tori training, but if the distinction exists (other than, post hoc, as an observation of who ended up throwing whom), then clearly both parties are not trying to “win” in the same way. If they were, how could you say who’s uke and who’s tori?
    Only in the sense that uke initiates the attack thats all.
  5. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:23am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    Only in the sense that uke initiates the attack thats all.
    I was Only following orders


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post

    Read my last post, I think we posted at the same time so you may have missed it? When we freestyle/randori/spar/whatever we don't throw a punch combo and then stop and say here's my wrist, far from it.
    Yes, your description sounds like the first video I posted. That's why everyone is now asking for video.


    Again I am not some Aikido crusader hell bent on changing all your minds on the art I am just trying to say its not as wishy washy as a lot of people think!
    Don't pre-argue. You don't know what anyone thinks about you. You made a couple of claims concerning your training and aliveness. Posters are trying to help you understand what it actually means. Now, you are going into defense mode, with jokes, defensiveness and assumptions.


    Calm down, remember you came in wondering why people bash Aikido.
    I just don't think its fair for the art to be trashed all the time because it has been overun by the pacifists seeking harmony.
  7. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:55am


     

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    I think I may have lost something in the way I write, I'm not the most descriptive person I guess. It is Fake, I don't mean to argue as such and I am calm I just thought I might be getting seen as though I am trying to claim Aikido is the greatest and I'm not, sorry for any confusion (I think I am more confused than anyone now). I admit I didn't know what the term alive meant specifically either so appologies for that too.

    The thing that does nibble a bit tho is the video evidence part, I understand why people ask for it tho. Alas I do not have any. And I can quite clearly understand why people bash Aikido, some of the vids on youtube make me cringe a bit too. I guess I was just trying to say that its not all bad and could be used in self defense, maybe I couldn't use it against a trained MMA'er but I am sure some could but that wasn't the question.

    My initial reason for posting at all was to ask if any other Aikido dojo's train like we do or if it was rare?
    Last edited by St Matt; 4/05/2012 10:59am at .
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 11:10am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alive as in BJJ, MMA, Boxing, etc Aikido schools are extremely rare. Since we have posters from all over the world I am going to say it is the norm.
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 11:11am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    As for the video evidence or it didn't happen bit, I will immediately employ my own personal film crew to follow my every move. No I won't - that was a joke.
    Each year, it becomes easier and easier to upload videos of your guys practicing. Any $50 digital camera these days can do video. Hell, a lot of the videos people upload here were filmed on a phone.
  10. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 11:18am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    The thing that does nibble a bit tho is the video evidence part, I understand why people ask for it tho. Alas I do not have any. And I can quite clearly understand why people bash Aikido, some of the vids on youtube make me cringe a bit too.
    The problem isn’t that some of the videos on YouTube make one cringe. That’s also true of some awful BJJ and judo videos, and I’m sure that someone who understands striking can dig up any number of videos showcasing horrible striking technique. The problem with aikido is that virtually all of the videos are cringe-inducing, unless it be as compliant demos. More, it seems that there is virtually no evidence of aikido working as a martial art. There are a few, rare dojos that spar (and often end up looking like sloppy judo); there are the shodokan guys with their tanto randori, which while not unproblematic is IMO better than most. But overall, the overwhelming weight of the evidence is against aikido, not for it.

    I guess I was just trying to say that its not all bad and could be used in self defense
    And of course, while I (and probably many others) am willing to believe that there exist some aikido schools that teach meaningful martial arts, everyone thinks that their school is good (or they wouldn’t be there): Some are correct, some aren’t. Ergo, if most aikido schools fail to teach combatively meaningful skills, and if most people think they are taught such whether they are right or not, then consequentially most aikidoka think they are learning good martial arts but are wrong. You may be an exception, but we’re unlikely to believe so unless we have evidence. Especially when this site contains years and years and countless thousands of words bearing witness to people’s delusions.

    maybe I couldn't use it against a trained MMA'er but I am sure some could but that wasn't the question.
    A very common defence of questionable martial arts appears to be “it may not stand up to those sport guys, but it’s good enough for the average schlob”. Maybe so, but if combative skill is your aim (or one of your aims), why take the chance and assume that your every opponent will be incompetent?

    My initial reason for posting at all was to ask if any other Aikido dojo's train like we do or if it was rare?
    Here’s where it would be lovely to see video to actually make a comparison. Get someone at your dojo to film a bit of randori using an iPhone or something.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
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