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  1. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 6:48am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can see where you are coming from, but locking out limbs and stiffening up doesn't compare to full resistance.

    I've typed this reply a few times, and edited it a bit before posting it, but I've just deleted it all to replace it with just two points for the moment:



    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    We do do what I see as sparring, although not all the time, albeit from a defenders point of view I suppose.
    Then it isn't sparring. That sounds like standard Aikido Randori.


    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    We freestyle a lot and have to 'try' and apply some form of defense/technique to an unknown attack which is what you may come up against outside the dojo.
    Emphasis is mine.

    The arts that Aikido gets (negatively) compared to here don't do this. The idea of an attack and a defence is much of the problem in many TMA's ability to transfer themselves to use outside the class structure.

    It sounds like you practice your Aikido hard, and that is probably good. More importantly, it sounds like a fun class.

    Take some of that training to a Judo or BJJ class though (I use them as an example as they are probably most technically similar of the alive arts), and spar with someone of a similar level.
    That'll show you the difference in results between the two training methods.

    So anyway, are you from the UK or what?


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  2. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 7:12am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So does sparring mean going toe to toe trading strikes and kicks and such?

    When I say we spar I mean that its not a predetermined attack and defense, it may be one on one for the most part and there is an attacker and a defender but its by no means AN attack and A defense, it could be anything (within reason of course, no guns allowed in our dojo). Also its not guarenteed that your defense will work so the attacker keeps coming until you either get beat or you pull something off as I said before I get hit a lot. Is that not live training?

    I must add tho that I dont claim that I am able to pull any flash moves off or am undefeated. I am pretty rubbish if truth be known but thats not Aikido thats me and my lack of time in the art. Some of the more senior guys tho are good and can easily drop me from traditional and very untraditional style attacks.
  3. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 7:49am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    So does sparring mean going toe to toe trading strikes and kicks and such?

    When I say we spar I mean that its not a predetermined attack and defense, it may be one on one for the most part and there is an attacker and a defender but its by no means AN attack and A defense, it could be anything (within reason of course, no guns allowed in our dojo). Also its not guarenteed that your defense will work so the attacker keeps coming until you either get beat or you pull something off as I said before I get hit a lot. Is that not live training?

    I must add tho that I dont claim that I am able to pull any flash moves off or am undefeated. I am pretty rubbish if truth be known but thats not Aikido thats me and my lack of time in the art. Some of the more senior guys tho are good and can easily drop me from traditional and very untraditional style attacks.
    From the description, it sounds like normal Aikido Randori.

    Do you have any video that might show it better? Doesn't need to be yours (though that would be great), but just some that shows the kind of level you describe?

    I apologise if I sound like whiner, but these threads are common, and often it's just a misunderstanding that simply comes down to either strong-arming against the technique or normal Aikido randori

    What style of Aikido do you practice by the way?


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 8:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    So does sparring mean going toe to toe trading strikes and kicks and such?

    When I say we spar I mean that its not a predetermined attack and defense, it may be one on one for the most part and there is an attacker and a defender but its by no means AN attack and A defense, it could be anything (within reason of course, no guns allowed in our dojo). Also its not guarenteed that your defense will work so the attacker keeps coming until you either get beat or you pull something off as I said before I get hit a lot. Is that not live training?

    I must add tho that I dont claim that I am able to pull any flash moves off or am undefeated. I am pretty rubbish if truth be known but thats not Aikido thats me and my lack of time in the art. Some of the more senior guys tho are good and can easily drop me from traditional and very untraditional style attacks.

    As long as that dichotomy exists it's not sparring. Doesn't mean it's not good conditioning in body mechanics movement and timing.

    but you're not conditioning your fight and flight reflexes or autonomic fast twitch response.
  5. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 8:44am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No I don't have any vids I'm afraid. When you say to show the kind of level I describe, please don't think I am describing some super advanced mega level because I don't mean to I am just saying that the black belts are very good at what they do as I am sure many many other black belts are.

    Maybe it is just randori then but its certainly 'alive' in the sense that if you don't act your gunna get scutched etc.

    The style we train in is just traditional.

    I don't know if my dojo is different to the masses but to my mind when I am reading these and other forums it certainly seems that we practice harder and definately do incorporate strikes and punches and kicks. And going back to the OP's question from my point of view Aikido DOES give you the tools to defend yourself.
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 8:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    No I don't have any vids I'm afraid. When you say to show the kind of level I describe, please don't think I am describing some super advanced mega level because I don't mean to I am just saying that the black belts are very good at what they do as I am sure many many other black belts are.

    Maybe it is just randori then but its certainly 'alive' in the sense that if you don't act your gunna get scutched etc.

    The style we train in is just traditional.

    I don't know if my dojo is different to the masses but to my mind when I am reading these and other forums it certainly seems that we practice harder and definately do incorporate strikes and punches and kicks. And going back to the OP's question from my point of view Aikido DOES give you the tools to defend yourself.
    No it's not and I trained Aikido in the same manner, but it's not the what is meant here by 'alive'

    You would have to train something like Judo or wrestling or BJJ to compare and see what I mean.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 9:30am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by St Matt View Post
    No I don't have any vids I'm afraid. When you say to show the kind of level I describe, please don't think I am describing some super advanced mega level because I don't mean to I am just saying that the black belts are very good at what they do as I am sure many many other black belts are.

    Maybe it is just randori then but its certainly 'alive' in the sense that if you don't act your gunna get scutched etc.

    The style we train in is just traditional.

    I don't know if my dojo is different to the masses but to my mind when I am reading these and other forums it certainly seems that we practice harder and definately do incorporate strikes and punches and kicks. And going back to the OP's question from my point of view Aikido DOES give you the tools to defend yourself.
    Yes, we get this claim all of the time. You might be that one dojo that actually trains alive, but without videos no one is going to believe you. Too many times people think throwing, punching, and contact automatically equals aliveness.

    For example:

    That video is not alive, but it had everything I described above.

    This video:

    Is Alive and actually looks lighter contact than the video above.

    The first video actually a decent attempt of adding aliveness to aikido. The problem is his partner immediately when he sort of gets the wrist lock. That makes the drill dead and partially worthless.
  8. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 9:42am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The key is to have an opponent whose goal is not to be the uke, not to throw an attack or a couple of attacks, but to win.

    Can you apply your techniques to someone who never rushes in blindly, who fakes and feints and times his attacks to when you are most vulnerable, who responds to your techniques not by stiffening up or trying to muscle but by doing his best to counter, who never feeds you the techniques you have easy responses scripted to but always tries to get you with something that (if possible) you genuinely cannot deal with? If you train that kind of thing, then you’re training to apply techniques against an opponent. If one of you is designated uke and the other tori, then that’s clearly not the case, as the winner and loser are largely predetermined.

    A good martial art needs to have sparring where both people are trying to win (in this sense), and where sufficient attention is given to this that attack and defence are both competent (so that the attacks you feel you can defend yourself from are also competent: Skilled punches and kicks and shots, not just some pure aikidoka doing his best impression of what he thinks a boxer might look like).

    Edit: And, of course, attempt to “win” under conditions—ruleset, contact level, and intensity—that, while not balls to the wall—is sufficiently similar to a real fight to be a meaningful and realistic simulator.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  9. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 9:52am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Yes, we get this claim all of the time. You might be that one dojo that actually trains alive, but without videos no one is going to believe you. Too many times people think throwing, punching, and contact automatically equals aliveness.

    For example:

    That video is not alive, but it had everything I described above.

    This video:

    Is Alive and actually looks lighter contact than the video above.

    The first video actually a decent attempt of adding aliveness to aikido. The problem is his partner immediately when he sort of gets the wrist lock. That makes the drill dead and partially worthless.
    Well I think throwing, punching and contact are certainly more alive than what some Aikido dojo's claim to do ie non resistant, zero strikes and such and as yet I am especially unsure of ki and the no touch throws, although I can see how they may happen by fluke so to speak.

    Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to claim my Aikido is teh d3adly as some put it, I just don't think its fair for the art to be trashed all the time because it has been overun by the pacifists seeking harmony. I think (know) that Aikido can be used effectively and if your in a especialy bad mood can do some damage to somebody.

    As for the video evidence or it didn't happen bit, I will immediately employ my own personal film crew to follow my every move. No I won't - that was a joke.
  10. St Matt is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 10:02am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Can you apply your techniques to someone who never rushes in blindly, who fakes and feints and times his attacks to when you are most vulnerable, who responds to your techniques not by stiffening up or trying to muscle but by doing his best to counter, who never feeds you the techniques you have easy responses scripted to but always tries to get you with something that (if possible) you genuinely cannot deal with? If you train that kind of thing, then you’re training to apply techniques against an opponent. If one of you is designated uke and the other tori, then that’s clearly not the case, as the winner and loser are largely predetermined.
    This ^^ is kinda like what we do. One is uke and one is tori as in uke attcks but if I am tori and I get it wrong uke either keeps coming OR I lose! There is no predetermined outcome when we freestyle. If my defense is crap I am going to go down. Maybe the attacker wont sit on my chest and purposely punch my teeth out (well not in the dojo anyway) but he/she will have me in some sort of lock/pin or will have thrown me.

    I know what you mean about the predetermined outcome and when we aren't freestyling this is what happens but we do do the above and I usually get mullered!
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