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  1. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Mar 2007
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    Posted On:
    2/27/2012 6:53pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Banjin Tsuki View Post
    The idea of many traditional arts is perfecting the "one punch" (or whatever technique) take down. It drives me crazy that many MMA and UFC fights go on for 5 or 15 minutes. Do that in the street and you're dead!
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicpoet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    The one hit stop/kill punch is like Bigfoot. Everyone has seen grainy evidence, but it can never be verified under intense scrutiny.
    I have no idea if you're referring to one punch knockouts or kills. Either one does indeed exist. Having it happen is a crapshoot, however — kind of like a hole in one.
    Excellent point! Banjin Tsuki, do you also go around ranting about golfers wasting their time with all those birdies and eagles when they should obviously just learn the true art of every-hole-in-one?
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  2. Bone Damage is offline

    Featherweight

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    Portland, OR
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    Posted On:
    2/27/2012 9:53pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ, Submission Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Welcome back. The misunderstanding is on your end. We are dissecting the generalities he leveled in that video and why he used it as a talking point.

    In some cases it is the art. Yes, I would take a boxer, who never sparred, over a TMAer doing forms and static drills against each other. Heck, in some cases I'd take the non-sparring boxer over some of the CMA schools I've visited or attended.
    Yeah, this here is why I haven't posted in a while.

    It's not that I misunderstand something, it's that you need to aggressively control the conversation even when it isn't at all necessary. It's frankly kind of a turn-off. There have been misconceptions about the Aliveness concepts written here in this thread. I thought maybe my post would help clear it up, since I've been personally training under Matt for three and a half years, and I have personal experience both being taught BJJ by him, as well as hearing these type of lectures on aliveness and training methodology, for hundreds upon hundreds of hours. But, nope, this is Bullshido, so it's instant negativity, and assumptions that I'm talking to you, instead of the other guy, you know, the one who was wrong, and other people who are like him who may also be wrong. I would figure it was obvious I wouldn't be "preaching to the choir". Uh, where am I again? Do you guys just assume I'm an idiot or something? I mean, I did post on Sherdog for a while, but Jee-ee-sus.

    The point Matt makes about it being the art vs. the training is the idea that an ineffective CMA for instance would eventually look more and more like kickboxing (or pick your effective striking art) as it was trained against resistance. Static drills can work to improve performance IF the technique is then added into the total game to be tested, ie by the integration stage, but the problem is that at some schools there IS no integration, and really no game to play, unless you count chi sau.

    But what if there was? What if, after learning butterfly-wing-finger-dance technique, you then had to chase a guy with headgear around and actually pull it off? Eventually effective techniques would rise to the top, no one could continue with fantasy if if things were always tested, people would throw strikes with real live timing, etc, etc. Aliveness could potentially make a CMA viable for fighting, but it would end up looking like Sanda, and no longer Kung Fu. Live CMA. When the art gets stupid, just add aliveness. When the art looks fake, add resistance and unpredictability.When you really want results, make it a sport.

    Wushu becomes Sanda, problem solved.It got solved by aliveness. A mediocre Sanda fighter from a shissy camp who had never been taught 5 minutes of boxing by a "boxing instructor" would own a boxer who had never sparred. The boxer would turn away, leave his guard open, and fold under the pressure of Chinese Boxing. This is the point the previous poster was misunderstanding when he said " . . . constant bucketing of "this is used in MMA so it is always trained alive" vs. "This is a traditional art so it's always trained dead" is a false dichotomy that, quite frankly, is just as bad as any "fantasy-based" art.", which is wrong. That false dichotomy does not exist. No one at SBG thinks that all this or all that. Religion is for suckers, and absolutes don't exist. What exists for Matt and SBG, in my informed opinion, is simply disdain for the resistance to aliveness by some TMAers, which then leads to silliness. For example, the other guy who was wrong about the one punch death techniques of death.

    These are weird, twisted, asinine ideas that deserve scorn, because they can actually get people hurt. That's who he means when he says TMA's, he's not talking about Kenpo, and he's not talking about Sanda or live CMAs, or even live-ish JKD. He's talking about JJJ, Akido, Tai Chi, YMCA Krotty, dead TKD, and traditional Kung Fu, unless they include sparring, at which point 3/4 of it goes out the window, and we're back to Sanda and Judo, again. And as for techniques being used in MMA, as the average level of grappling competence has risen amongst fighters, more and more traditional techniques are used effectively. But training only those techniques for self defense with slap sparring, while ignoring the clinch and ground games is not training with aliveness, because those happen in nearly every fight. If you've got game in the clinch and on the ground, then you can throw crescent kicks. The wave of the future is guys like Machida, Jones, and Diaz; insanely competent grapplers who keep it standing with unique or nontraditional MMA striking styles.

    Matt puts a lot of emphasis on one's own personal martial arts bullsh** meter. On skepticism. People who resist aliveness are full of bullsh**, I am skeptical of them, and it's hard to have respect for someone like that, because I feel like they are lying. I don't care if someone wants to do Kung Fu, I did Kung Fu too, and loved it. But aside from a couple trips that I improved immensely with wrestling, I don't use a scrap of it today. The trips, coincidentally were the only thing we trained live. We were actually trying to trip each other, so I can still do it against a resisting opponent. Of course, it was just Judo anyway, but . . .

    I'm finished with my rant now, I'll go back to lurking. Keep up the good work, I suppose effective people do sometimes need to be humorless, and I shouldn't take it personally. I'll poke my head out towards the end of the year. Thanks guys!
    Last edited by Bone Damage; 2/27/2012 9:57pm at .
  3. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2012 10:07pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "PEOPLE" is plural and then you mentioned specifics from my post. I wonder why I thought you were talking to me instead of the "other guy?"

    Sanda is a rule-set for Kung fu. Other people can enter, but it originated back when CMA used to compete on a regular basis. So, that is how CMA used to look prior to the misinformation and fake GrandMasters that sold snake oil to Americans.
  4. battlefields is offline
    battlefields's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2012 10:12pm

    forum leader
     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bone Damage View Post
    Yeah, this here is why I haven't posted in a while.

    It's not that I misunderstand something, it's that you need to aggressively control the conversation even when it isn't at all necessary. It's frankly kind of a turn-off. There have been misconceptions about the Aliveness concepts written here in this thread. I thought maybe my post would help clear it up, since I've been personally training under Matt for three and a half years, and I have personal experience both being taught BJJ by him, as well as hearing these type of lectures on aliveness and training methodology, for hundreds upon hundreds of hours. But, nope, this is Bullshido, so it's instant negativity, and assumptions that I'm talking to you, instead of the other guy, you know, the one who was wrong, and other people who are like him who may also be wrong. I would figure it was obvious I wouldn't be "preaching to the choir". Uh, where am I again? Do you guys just assume I'm an idiot or something? I mean, I did post on Sherdog for a while, but Jee-ee-sus.

    The point Matt makes about it being the art vs. the training is the idea that an ineffective CMA for instance would eventually look more and more like kickboxing (or pick your effective striking art) as it was trained against resistance. Static drills can work to improve performance IF the technique is then added into the total game to be tested, ie by the integration stage, but the problem is that at some schools there IS no integration, and really no game to play, unless you count chi sau.

    But what if there was? What if, after learning butterfly-wing-finger-dance technique, you then had to chase a guy with headgear around and actually pull it off? Eventually effective techniques would rise to the top, no one could continue with fantasy if if things were always tested, people would throw strikes with real live timing, etc, etc. Aliveness could potentially make a CMA viable for fighting, but it would end up looking like Sanda, and no longer Kung Fu. Live CMA. When the art gets stupid, just add aliveness. When the art looks fake, add resistance and unpredictability.When you really want results, make it a sport.

    Wushu becomes Sanda, problem solved.It got solved by aliveness. A mediocre Sanda fighter from a shissy camp who had never been taught 5 minutes of boxing by a "boxing instructor" would own a boxer who had never sparred. The boxer would turn away, leave his guard open, and fold under the pressure of Chinese Boxing. This is the point the previous poster was misunderstanding when he said " . . . constant bucketing of "this is used in MMA so it is always trained alive" vs. "This is a traditional art so it's always trained dead" is a false dichotomy that, quite frankly, is just as bad as any "fantasy-based" art.", which is wrong. That false dichotomy does not exist. No one at SBG thinks that all this or all that. Religion is for suckers, and absolutes don't exist. What exists for Matt and SBG, in my informed opinion, is simply disdain for the resistance to aliveness by some TMAers, which then leads to silliness. For example, the other guy who was wrong about the one punch death techniques of death.

    These are weird, twisted, asinine ideas that deserve scorn, because they can actually get people hurt. That's who he means when he says TMA's, he's not talking about Kenpo, and he's not talking about Sanda or live CMAs, or even live-ish JKD. He's talking about JJJ, Akido, Tai Chi, YMCA Krotty, dead TKD, and traditional Kung Fu, unless they include sparring, at which point 3/4 of it goes out the window, and we're back to Sanda and Judo, again. And as for techniques being used in MMA, as the average level of grappling competence has risen amongst fighters, more and more traditional techniques are used effectively. But training only those techniques for self defense with slap sparring, while ignoring the clinch and ground games is not training with aliveness, because those happen in nearly every fight. If you've got game in the clinch and on the ground, then you can throw crescent kicks. The wave of the future is guys like Machida, Jones, and Diaz; insanely competent grapplers who keep it standing with unique or nontraditional MMA striking styles.

    Matt puts a lot of emphasis on one's own personal martial arts bullsh** meter. On skepticism. People who resist aliveness are full of bullsh**, I am skeptical of them, and it's hard to have respect for someone like that, because I feel like they are lying. I don't care if someone wants to do Kung Fu, I did Kung Fu too, and loved it. But aside from a couple trips that I improved immensely with wrestling, I don't use a scrap of it today. The trips, coincidentally were the only thing we trained live. We were actually trying to trip each other, so I can still do it against a resisting opponent. Of course, it was just Judo anyway, but . . .

    I'm finished with my rant now, I'll go back to lurking. Keep up the good work, I suppose effective people do sometimes need to be humorless, and I shouldn't take it personally. I'll poke my head out towards the end of the year. Thanks guys!
    How did you manage to misunderstand twice?

    We get it. We don't need a wall of text expounding the virtues of alive training, let alone two of them; this is bullshido, the no bullshit, no nonsense martial arts forum that promotes alive training at its fucking core. Now, if you had directed your post, by way of the quote function or referring to the specific posters who don't get the idea of aliveness, that would have been fine as your experience with Matt and aliveness would have lent a credibility. What you are saying has merit, it just comes off as arrogant. I know you don't mean it to, but it does and the reason is that you haven't looked to address any specific misunderstandings regarding aliveness, instead giving everyone a general overview of the concept. Seeing how those members who have been here longer than, say, three weeks, can attest to having a similar overall concept of aliveness, it is arrogant to jump on your soap box and wall of text us with stuff we know.

    Next time, if you want to correct someONE who misunderstands a concept, use the "reply with quote" button at the bottom of the offending post, so we know who you are talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  5. atomicpoet is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2012 12:50am


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a thought here. I have a coworker who teaches Choy Lay Fut. At first I approached him with skepticism — due to my experiences with other CMAs. But then I found out some interesting things about him:

    • He travelled to China to compete in an International full-contact competition
    • At this competition, he came in 2nd place
    • He continues his live training so he can compete again


    I got him to show me a few of the fundamentals of Choy Lay Fut. To my surprise... it was a lot like boxing. Don't get me wrong, a few of the strikes wouldn't be allowed in boxing (since the rules stipulate that you have to hit with the knuckle), but the principles remain the same.

    He and I often talk about Wing Chun since we both share a low opinion of it. In the CMA world, Wing Chun has low regard because chunners rarely spar, but are always looking to start fights — which they promptly lose (or so I've been told).

    He's not aware of this board, but our general thoughts on martial arts are similar: do what works, discard what doesn't, the only way to know is through "live" sparring.

    One final note: there is non-alive boxing. It's call boxercise. No, I don't think boxercisers would be prepared for an actual fight.
  6. Giga Oni is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2012 9:38am


     Style: Transitioning...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just wrote a hell of a text here and accidentaly hit backspace lol


    To put it simple: Also, theres a lot of MT and MMA gyms spreading arround here cos of popularity of MT and UFC nowadays, ive met some guys who train about 3 years or more and cant fight for ****. Believe me, soon we will be seeing MT, KB and BJJ fall into bulshit...at least in some places.

    About TMAs some masters fucked it up with to much phylosophy and self improvement **** (Funakoshi anyone, yes shoto ppl bash me...)
  7. DarkZen is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 4:17am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate/Jujutsu/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good points, especially when he talks about it being more about HOW you train as opposed to WHAT you train. I train/teach karate, classical jujutsu and train in BJJ, but aliveness is incorporated. No, we don't beat the **** out of each other, but once the student has a chance to work the mechanics slowly against a non-resisting opponent the attacks come faster, more realistically and without warning and the attacking partner doesn't go down or stop unless the student defends well enough to FORCE his partner to do so. I'm talking about the karate and jujutsu systems I teach. BJJ speaks for itself. :-)

    I also completely agree and teach that if you have a chance to escape or de-escalate a situation rather than fight, ESPECIALLY against a knife/gun wielding attacker...DO IT. Your "ego" is not worth your life.

    And, finally, I also agree (for the most part) with his outlook on spirituality, though I have no problem using the term. If others automatically assume I'm talking about religion, that's their own problem and they will have to deal with their own ignorance. Organized religion, in my opinion, is just another form of control. Who or whatever God is, he/she/it created us with free will and the ability to make our own choices. To say that we have to believe any one certain way goes against that principal. Sorry. Didn't mean to preach. lol
  8. DarkZen is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 4:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate/Jujutsu/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, and what he said about the easiest people in the world to take down being people who don't grapple...Fuckin' A! Absolutely correct! I've been a pretty good striker for 20 years or so but started grappling in 2000 with submission wrestling and BJJ. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter you NEED to train ground work even if you don't necessarily WANT to go to the ground. I work corrections and the last thing I want to do when I go in on a fight in a dorm with 50 or 60 inmates is go to the ground, but the best way to defend against a grappler is to BE a grappler. Plus, if you do get taken down, lose your balance, whatever, and all you know how to do is strike...you're SOL!
  9. DarkZen is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 4:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate/Jujutsu/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga Oni View Post

    About TMAs some masters fucked it up with to much phylosophy and self improvement **** (Funakoshi anyone, yes shoto ppl bash me...)
    Philosophy and self-improvement in TMAs isn't in and of itself a problem. It IS a problem, however, when it becomes the main focus of the system to such a point that the physical training and realistic application of technique takes a back-seat to spirituality (aikido, anyone?). There is also a difference between karate-do, where the philosophical/spiritual aspects are the driving force, and karate-jutsu, which places the emphasis on physicality and practicality. To me, it should be one in the same if you're a TMA practitioner; forging the spirit through hard physical training. If you take the "martial" out of the "martial arts" you might as well take dance lessons instead.
  10. DarkZen is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 5:13am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate/Jujutsu/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kyusho Test "TMA grainy video" = total bullshit. Looks like George Dillhole's crap. Though, the chance to repeatedly whack your gym mates in the back of the head without retaliation does look like fun. LOL
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