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  1. adox26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 11:40am

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Want to know why my training worked? Because I am used to being hit.
    So are you telling me that in your training, you and your classmates practice by hitting each other with fists as hard as you can?
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 12:11pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    So are you telling me that in your training, you and your classmates practice by hitting each other with fists as hard as you can?
    As hard as safety and common sense allows, which is way harder than non hitting at all or playing martial patty-cake.
  3. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 12:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    I think Matt is being a little bit disingenuous here.
    I like Matt and his philosophies and while I agree he can go a bit wild with his statements (he sometimes paints with broad strokes), I don't agree with your reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    how can you train with aliveness when you are practicing techniques to smash and elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?
    Sifu punched me in the ribs the other day showing me a technique and I felt pain.

    He asked "did that hurt" and I reply "no, sifu", because there was no pain.

    Then practice continued.
  4. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 5:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    So are you telling me that in your training, you and your classmates practice by hitting each other with fists as hard as you can?
    No, but we are hitting each other. You can train all you like in limb destruction, teh deadly nose spike, downward elbows to the spine and all those other things that are "too dangerous" to perform on your training partner, but it's useless if the moment you get bonked in the face you collapse into a whimpering puddle of fear. And you will.

    I know my training partner isn't out to maim me, but I also know he is out to perform techniques that potentially could hurt me. Not only must I learn to deal with these techniques as they are performed on me, but my body is also releasing small amounts of adrenaline, of which I slowly become accustomed.

    Do you know what happens physiologically in a violent confrontation? Your body releases a massive amount of adrenaline, it is what causes the fight or flight response. Now, considering I have learnt to deal with small amounts of adrenaline and while dealing with it have also learnt to administer fighting techniques, when that big dump comes, I am better prepared to deal with the dump. You aren't.

    So no, we aren't hitting each other as hard as we can, but I can tell you when that adrenaline dump occurs, it allows me to hit harder and take harder hits because of my training. My fight or flight response is more likely to remain in fight mode because I have been there before. Yours hasn't, so you will cover up or run, like a little bitch.

    Welcome to the real world.
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    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
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    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 5:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    So are you telling me that in your training, you and your classmates practice by hitting each other with fists as hard as you can?
    This lets me know you have never trained at an alive gym or went to a terrible one.


    Where in that quote does it say
    "by hitting each other with fists as hard as you can
    ?

    how can you train with aliveness when you are practicing techniques to smash and elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?
    The same way the military does war games and other military live exercises. These things called safety gear.
  6. adox26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 7:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    As hard as safety and common sense allows, which is way harder than non hitting at all or playing martial patty-cake.
    Which is exactly what we do in our classes as well. However, does that really qualify as "aliveness" as Matt explains it? I understand what he is saying, I'm just trying to make a point that you can only do that with grappling. When it comes to striking, and BJJ does teach some striking, you have to have some safety precautions. It has to be controlled a bit and use safety equipment. Even with the precautions you still have some injuries, I've suffered broken toes, and broken fingers, bruises and cuts.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 8:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    Which is exactly what we do in our classes as well.
    Videos please because what you are typing, as what you do compared to others, doesn't fit

    However, does that really qualify as "aliveness" as Matt explains it?
    Yes.

    I'm just trying to make a point that you can only do that with grappling.
    You are completely wrong.

    When it comes to striking, and BJJ does teach some striking, you have to have some safety precautions. It has to be controlled a bit and use safety equipment.
    You are kidding right? Minus some safety gear, cups are optional, grappling has to be controlled and needs safety options. One of which is called TAPPING OUT. Where are you getting this poor information?


    Even with the precautions you still have some injuries, I've suffered broken toes, and broken fingers, bruises and cuts.
    So, are you implying that judo, Sambo, wrestling and BJJ don't have any of these injuries during training. If not, you have just destroyed your entire argument.
  8. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 9:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adox26 View Post
    Which is exactly what we do in our classes as well.
    Maybe is, maybe not. I have not seen your sparring sessions.

    However, in my personal experience, I would not say Shotokan Karate is exactly the same as in i.e. Kickboxing regarding contact level in sparring sessions.

    However, does that really qualify as "aliveness" as Matt explains it?
    No. Thornton's "aliveness" is not only about contact level. There is more to it than contact level.

    I understand what he is saying, I'm just trying to make a point that you can only do that with grappling. When it comes to striking, and BJJ does teach some striking, you have to have some safety precautions. It has to be controlled a bit and use safety equipment. Even with the precautions you still have some injuries, I've suffered broken toes, and broken fingers, bruises and cuts.
    Well, as I said before, is about safety and common sense. But not everybody has exactly the same understanding of safety and/or common sense. What a person considers excessive level of contact or unsafe training conditions is considered totally safe and normal for another.

    In any case, techniques that can only be trained in an unrealistic way because safety concerns tend to fail when tried in realistic scenarios, for the training was flawed. Training should be oriented at achieving the upper hand in a confrontation and done under the most realistic conditions: alive arts excel at this aspect and you should also consider the probabilities of pulling techniques trained under said flawed model when you are not controlling the fight. You are escalating the level of violence in a situation not under your control... doesn't seem a good idea.

    OTOH, you should consider the ethical/moral/legal aspects of traninig for "the deadly" when there are less damaging methods, proven in multiple encounters, for imposing your will by means of physical violence on your opponent. Why mutilate or severely injure your opponent when putting him to sleep could suffice? Think about it.
    Last edited by DCS; 11/12/2012 9:11pm at . Reason: typos
  9. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 9:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is something supremely satisfying in completely controlling someone with as little physical damage inflicted as possible. The psychological damage to the person being controlled is immense, while inflicting little psychological damage to the controller.

    Take my previous example. In the past, without the training I have received over the last few years, I probably still would've beaten my housemate in a fight. However, the damage I inflicted him would've been much, much worse. The reason being is that in the past I would blind rage, throw haymakers, headbutts and elbows when presented with a physical confrontation. The physical and psychological damage to him would have been massive.

    OTOH, I had no concept of mitigating force, if I was fighting, I was fighting for my life. Every altercation I had resulted in me with a range of injuries, but worse was the next day spent checking the papers and watching the news for word on the "victim". I fully expected police to show up on many occasions. Granted, 99% of these altercations were alcohol fuelled, have you ever felt the sickness that comes when you realise that your hands had probably sent someone to hospital? If not, believe me, you do not ever want to experience it. It still haunts me. It is the cause of great anguish that can't be erased.

    And when all you've learnt is limb destructions, bone breaks, kill kill kill, guess what you will try when someone tries to fight you? And if those techniques work, guess where you will be?

    The psychological damage to your opponent when you don't have to do any of the dirty **** is huge. Especially if they think they have teh deadly.

    Also, as mentioned before, escalating the level of violence against someone who is dominating you, say by clawing eyes, biting, etc, well, two can play at that game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Ups to Battlefields for dropping the sage wisdom.

    You are like a Pimp Yoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquil Suit View Post
    Battlefields... You're more of a man than I am.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
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