Skepticism & Spirituality in the Martial Arts

**LesbianSeagal** · Posted On: 9/04/2012 8:14pm

Originally Posted by battlefields

Aliveness is testing your skills in an alive manner, against a resisting opponent. Obviously that begins with little to know resistance drilling, then progresses. No one said aliveness=sparring only. Aliveness has been defined repeatedly on this site.

"Resisting," or actually trying to beat you? Someone can "resist" all day, but there's nothing like taking good uppercut to the chin, to make you wake up and suddenly realize "hey, this guy's actually trying to hit me, too!" and that if you neglect your defense for one instant then it's your ass.

Most schools just teach pure offense, since obviously in a fight it's better to give than to receive; but when you're a target then it's too late to realize Murphy's Combat Law that "if the enemy's in range, so are you."

**LesbianSeagal** · Posted On: 9/04/2012 8:17pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Yeah, no.

Well make up your mind!

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 9/04/2012 8:20pm

Originally Posted by LesbianSeagal

Well make up your mind!

I have that's terrible.

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 9/04/2012 8:27pm

Goddammit. I just saw I wrote "little to know resistance". I must've been on a internet bender.

**LesbianSeagal** · Posted On: 9/05/2012 5:37pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

I have that's terrible.

So are circular rebuttals.

**pakua42** · Posted On: 9/26/2012 8:58pm

Originally Posted by W. Rabbit

Matt looks like hell, did he go undercover for this assignment? Someone told him the 90's grunge style was still in on college campuses or something and he wanted to blend in with the right flannels and hair.

I like Matt, but he's still heavily biased and persists in associating "traditional" with "dead training". In Matt's world, traditional training is never alive, which is a silly thing to keep spouting in this day and age.

I get that he needs to pimp "Aliveness" wherever he goes but the constant bucketing of "this is used in MMA so it is always trained alive" vs. "This is a traditional art so it's always trained dead" is a false dichotomy that, quite frankly, is just as bad as any "fantasy-based" art.

I use Matt's philosophy whenever I train, if it's a dead drill (and dead drills have their place), I ask myself how I could train it more alive, and I credit Matt for that sort of thing. But he didn't invent aliveness, he just pointed it out.

Rabbitt, I couldnt agree with you more. Why dont we ALL agree that what we can take away from Matt's view is that the more you move toward traditional arts, the less chance you have of being able to win a life and death confrontation. But "less, doesnt mean "none." I personally have no interest whatsoever in Mui thai, and BJJ and wrestling. I dont enjoy moving my body that way and neither will work if the guy with the knife gets the first strike in. We both agree on that Im sure. -)

However, that said, Im sure without even seeing his old grainy videos(which we all did) of O'Sensei, Matt would respect him "and" the art immensely. Same with Imin Bostepe from Wing Chun. If youve ever youtubed him to look him up and his knife defense techniques, the guy is tremendously alive and possibly the best Wing Practitioner around. His speed is blinding. But Matt has a point....how many like those 2 in traditional arts are we going to find. Now tell me if you dont agree with this Rabbitt......

arts that are "too alive" if there is such a thing, arts like Jeet Kun Do which is basically inventing your own style, inventing hundreds of your own techniques from a few principles....how good will you be with that when "aliveness is your biggest edge, but your up against a guy who has fought 10 or 15 times in prison for life and death? Suddenly your alive art isnt that alive anymore, right? Also when you practice an alive art, the tendency is to have too many instructors without the precision to explain the body mechanics of why you should even do a move and what othjer holes it opens or the downside to moving at a certain angle. If all you see is blinding speed, then to me, all you have a re a bunch of Bruce Lee wanna be's and lets be honest...........as alive as Bruce claimed to train, do any of us really know how good he really was....or would be today? Back up a step...look at Paul Vunak, the guy on tape looks like a machine. Incredible. But, if he coudnt fight well(Im sure you can Paul! Dont get excited.), couldnt he hide it with a lot of "alive" looking traps and close range hits that will makew anyone look as good as he looks...if they chose to just praqctice a mish mosh of what Paul does on his dvd's? In other words, its harder to tell who is the real deal when the art is TOO eclectic...sometimes. I dont have the answers, Im just throwing my 2 cents in. Anyone here agree. And by the way, Ive seen Matt on the ground and this guy can really,really grapple. But Im not going to ask him to walk around in a prison all day to see how high his level is compared to stone cold killers. MOST OF US WILL ALWAYS HAVE THAT DISADVANTAGE...OF BEING A CIVILIZED PERSON AND NEVER REALLY KNOWING THE ANSWER. I personally dont want to go to prison or war to find out. I think too, which is off subject, but enjoying "training" in your art may be most important of all ,which when I did tai chi and hsing-I AND ALL THE MYSTICAL ARTS wasnt really there for me and I kept quitting. So to me, the best art oftentimes is the one you dont quit!

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 9/27/2012 3:14am

Originally Posted by pakua42

Rabbitt, I couldnt agree with you more. Why dont we ALL agree that what we can take away from Matt's view is that the more you move toward traditional arts, the less chance you have of being able to win a life and death confrontation. But "less, doesnt mean "none." I personally have no interest whatsoever in Mui thai, and BJJ and wrestling. I dont enjoy moving my body that way and neither will work if the guy with the knife gets the first strike in. We both agree on that Im sure. -)

However, that said, Im sure without even seeing his old grainy videos(which we all did) of O'Sensei, Matt would respect him "and" the art immensely. Same with Imin Bostepe from Wing Chun. If youve ever youtubed him to look him up and his knife defense techniques, the guy is tremendously alive and possibly the best Wing Practitioner around. His speed is blinding. But Matt has a point....how many like those 2 in traditional arts are we going to find. Now tell me if you dont agree with this Rabbitt......

arts that are "too alive" if there is such a thing, arts like Jeet Kun Do which is basically inventing your own style, inventing hundreds of your own techniques from a few principles....how good will you be with that when "aliveness is your biggest edge, but your up against a guy who has fought 10 or 15 times in prison for life and death? Suddenly your alive art isnt that alive anymore, right? Also when you practice an alive art, the tendency is to have too many instructors without the precision to explain the body mechanics of why you should even do a move and what othjer holes it opens or the downside to moving at a certain angle. If all you see is blinding speed, then to me, all you have a re a bunch of Bruce Lee wanna be's and lets be honest...........as alive as Bruce claimed to train, do any of us really know how good he really was....or would be today? Back up a step...look at Paul Vunak, the guy on tape looks like a machine. Incredible. But, if he coudnt fight well(Im sure you can Paul! Dont get excited.), couldnt he hide it with a lot of "alive" looking traps and close range hits that will makew anyone look as good as he looks...if they chose to just praqctice a mish mosh of what Paul does on his dvd's? In other words, its harder to tell who is the real deal when the art is TOO eclectic...sometimes. I dont have the answers, Im just throwing my 2 cents in. Anyone here agree. And by the way, Ive seen Matt on the ground and this guy can really,really grapple. But Im not going to ask him to walk around in a prison all day to see how high his level is compared to stone cold killers. MOST OF US WILL ALWAYS HAVE THAT DISADVANTAGE...OF BEING A CIVILIZED PERSON AND NEVER REALLY KNOWING THE ANSWER. I personally dont want to go to prison or war to find out. I think too, which is off subject, but enjoying "training" in your art may be most important of all ,which when I did tai chi and hsing-I AND ALL THE MYSTICAL ARTS wasnt really there for me and I kept quitting. So to me, the best art oftentimes is the one you dont quit!

-1

Because the Thumb down wasn't big enough to express my displeasure with this post.

**adox26** · Posted On: 11/11/2012 10:42pm

I think Matt is being a little bit disingenuous here. If you train in BJJ, you can train with "aliveness", but the trainees have to agree to use BJJ techniques. For instance if someone came into a BJJ dojo with the intent of clawing out someone's eyes, then the "aliveness" sort of works against you. Also, on the other side of the coin, how can you train with aliveness when you are practicing techniques to smash and elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?

**cualltaigh** · Posted On: 11/11/2012 11:15pm

G'day adox26, welcome to Bullshido.

Originally Posted by adox26

I think Matt is being a little bit disingenuous here. If you train in BJJ, you can train with "aliveness", but the trainees have to agree to use BJJ techniques. For instance if someone came into a BJJ dojo with the intent of clawing out someone's eyes, then the "aliveness" sort of works against you.

I think it would be disingenuous to turn up to train BJJ and pull out non-BJJ anti-grappling moves. Just as it would be disingenuous to turn up to Shotokan training and pull BJJ moves on your partner.

Aliveness isn't about throwing out the ruleset you are training under, it is about learning to apply techniques against someone who is resisting the technique.

Originally Posted by adox26

Also, on the other side of the coin, how can you train with aliveness when you are practicing techniques to smash and elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?

If you read this paragraph as a statement, it answers the question.

Originally Posted by adox26

fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?

There is some good information around this^ on the site, if you do a quick search using the search function there's a few threads worth reading. Here's one to get you started.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48674

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 11/12/2012 12:07am

Originally Posted by adox26

I think Matt is being a little bit disingenuous here. If you train in BJJ, you can train with "aliveness", but the trainees have to agree to use BJJ techniques. For instance if someone came into a BJJ dojo with the intent of clawing out someone's eyes, then the "aliveness" sort of works against you. Also, on the other side of the coin, how can you train with aliveness when you are practicing techniques to smash and elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose and push the fragments back into the brain?

This is sad. You obviously know very little about martial arts in general, BJJ and anatomy. You're also drinking the kool aid, but that's not the real problem here.

The real problem is you think that someone is going to learn how to "smash and [sic] elbow, or collarbone, or to break ribs, or fracture the nose" by training absolutely any other way than alive. And, "push the fragments back into the brain"? That's cute. You're cute. Your delusion makes you cute. Like, "if we were in a prison cell you'd be my bitch" type of cute.

See, I train in alive arts. I live with someone who has informed me in the past that their "streetfighting style, brawler style" where he "smashes knee caps and kicks groins" would completely dominate me and my "sport" training. Because he would say, "you can't train for dirty techniques, someone would lose an eye".

Guess how long it took me to completely dismantle this man on the weekend when he started a fight with me? I punched him in the face three times before he could return his first fist to guard his face. I wrapped him up like a pretzel and slammed his face into a desk, completely disabling any of these hardcore techniques he was so fond of telling me would make my training completely null and void in an altercation with him. Using my grappling knowledge I secured his limbs and ensured any other weapons (teeth and feet) could not be used. It took me approximately 3 seconds.

Want to know why my training worked? Because I am used to being hit. I've become accustomed to stronger and more advanced people rushing and controlling me. I'm not aiming for a target that is slightly larger than my thumbnail (the eyes), I'm not deluding myself that one hit will finish a fight, one perfectly timed elbow bend will crack it and the perfect angle of the heel of my palm will do anything but make the person's eyes water, maybe bloody his nose a bit. I know that if I put a couple of punches to the face, slip their punches and secure their body, no amount of clawing at my eyes is going to mean ****.

Put it this way. If you claw at my eyes in training, you will learn really quickly (a) why it doesn't work and (b) just how painful a joint is when it is hyperextended past 90 degrees.