Fantazy tiemz!

[Scrapper]

I dunno, YRkoon, 500 bucks can buy a lot of good guns. If only someone had written a series of articles on just such a topic...

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/articles.php?c=116

That being said, train first, toys second. you don't know what you want until you know what you can shoot well.

[Gabetuno]

First you should try to get your balls to drop. Does your mommyfriend tell you when to tinkle too? I guess if some demon limited me to four guns I'd go with:

I'm glad you mentioned this. Now I know your chances at procreation are low, and that makes me happy. :-D

A 12 gauge pump for hunting. You can't beat the versatility. Stock up on a variety of shells and you can hunt everything from doves to elk.

A lovely thought, but where I'm at it's more like "everything from pigeons to cats". Unless I go to the zoo... OM NOM.

An AR-15. It's a good service rifle and you can find ammo everywhere. When the zombies come you can take ammo off the dead cops. Also, the "gun" is the lower receiver so maybe you can get an extra upper or two and sneak in some additional capabilities without Genghis getting too mad. Maybe an M4 upper and a scoped long range upper.

A Glock in .45. What can I say? I love 'em. They're great pistols.

A Ruger 10/22. You can stockpile enough .22 ammo for a lifetime for cheap. You can kill small game with it. You can even kill deer or people with it in a pinch if you can shoot. The .22 long is my favorite cartridge of all time.

Do you think that shooting with .22 ammo improves your fundamentals, or makes you more complacent in the way you grip and deal with recoil? I'm not so worried about the cost, but I do wonder if shooting a 9mm ONLY is the equivalent of never sparring with big gloves or headgear.

[Gabetuno]

I'll just get down to brass tacks here. This is a "minimum" set up, and should be treated as such. It's also for a SHTF scenario. There's a couple schools of thought about how to treat ammo within your arsenal, but I'll get to that later.



I personally do not like Glocks. I can shoot very well with them and they're accurate pistols but I hate the grip angle and the lack of an external safety. There's the whole unsupported chamber thing and other various sundry items that make me dislike the Glock.

BUT! In 9mm, if you like it, it's an accurate pistol and rock-solid reliable. That and it's a common handgun. You'll have no problem finding spare parts and extra magazines if something goes wrong. This is a concept I'll be coming back to again and again. If something goes wrong with your weapon, you need to be able to fix it or replace it and in my opinion you're better off fixing it, because it's your weapon; you understand it's little foibles.



I'd vote no on this one. IMO when SHTF there's no point in a concealed carry piece in a minimum preparedness loadout. I'd agree with YrKoon and Rob on this one. Replace it. Rob's advice regarding a revolver is pretty good, but I'd go with a .357. You can still load .38 special in it and it can eat .357 as well.



Unlike YrKoon, I see no problem here. This is an opinion thing. I like shotguns for their utility. Plus with shot you have a little bit of compensation for nerves in a high-stress situation and can work well in a tactical situation if everyone has a pre-defined role. However, the person with the shotgun will not be able to 'reach out and touch someone', so it's better as part of a multi-person team rather than a pair. (Read as: Find some other crazies you trust to team up with.) The Mossberg 500 is common, so replacement parts will not be a problem and ammo should be plentiful. Alternatives include the Remington 870, the other super-common pump action shotgun in the US. Or, as YrKoon has suggested, a second rifle instead.



Again, no problems here. The one thing to watch is to make sure you get an AR with 5.56x45 stamped on the receiver. This means that the receiver has been designed and tested for the higher pressures of military ammunition. It will still fire .223. (The opposite is true for 7.62/.308. You want .308 there. But then again you didn't ask.) Koon is right in that ARs are expensive, but spare parts are, once again, common. If memory serves, the AR is THE most common rifle in the US.



No need for that.

OK... ammo. I mentioned earlier that there's two schools of thought with ammo. The first is what you sort of seem to be doing now. You make ammo and perhaps magazines common across all your weapon platforms. As a matter of fact, I HIGHLY encourage that if you decide to go this route, make sure your magazines interchangeable between your weapons that use the same ammo. This assumes that you have a large amount of ammo and perhaps reloading equipment so that you won't run out of that particular kind of ammo. There's nothing wrong with this, but you HAVE to have large amounts of ammunition if you're doing this. You should anyhow, but if you limit the ammo you can fire in this way it is absolutely imperative that you not run out. It also limits you to one 'pool' of ammunition. However, 9mm is a common round so there is that going for you.

The second school of thought, and the one that I subscribe to, is to get weapons that go across common ammunition calibers. If you're scavenging at some point and find some ammo it does you no good if you don't have something that shoots it. The downside here is that if you lady friend runs out of pistol ammo you can't just toss her a mag. She's done shooting until she gets more ammunition or finds a new weapon. My personal collection right now has, among other things, a springfield XD in 9mm, a 1911, a .357 revolver, a scoped bolt .308, an AR in 5.56mm, a 30-30, and a mossberg 500. Extra mags for every weapon (even the .308 takes mags. They're just small. As well as speed loaders for the revolver.) and a lot of ammo for each firearm.

Another place where YrKoon is absolutely correct is in range time. It is an absolute must for you and your "fuckin' lady friend". Without it, all this is moot. Build proficiency, learn to move in tactical gear and how to do small unit tactics. Otherwise, nothing personal, but I'll be adding your equipment to my own if we run into each other once the SHTF.

I am inclined to keep the rounds uniform across as many weapons as possible, but I do wonder if a 9mm FMJ should give me concerns about stopping power. Should I stockpile something like that for range only, and then have another kind of 9mm cartridge when I'm shootin' for keeps?

[Gabetuno]

Some more thoughts based on things said in this thread.

Rob, I love my CZ75. Absolutely love it. Mainly because it is so damn accurate. I think that people who aren't Glock fans but who ARE 1911 fans like the grip angle of the CZ75 and feel comfortable shooting it. That being said...after about 2k rounds I have had 2 consecutive out-of-battery failures. At first I thought it was the ammo or the mag or something. But went to the range today and had an identical failure after the first round. This gun may be getting replaced if I can't fix it. Broke my heart. My second favorite pistol (but favorite 9mm).

I know of this gun, and it's super cool-lookin' and was standard issue in Europe at some point I think. Other than that, the only thing I'm sure of is it's pretty hard to come by. That makes me reluctant, in case I need to get it parts or altered.

The Ruger 10/22. Why don't I own one? I have no answer. I own 2 tactical .22lr and love them. I think it stems from the fact that I have a pump action winchester .22lr and a Browning take down as well. That is like 4 .22lr's and I haven't figured out how to justify a Ruger 10/22 to myself. But they are a DAMN FINE gun and anyone looking for a SHTF rifle should own one. A guy could hunt for years with one and $20 in ammo.

The common AK misconceptions: They can fire when full of mud and they aren't very accurate. Case in point - my dad brought his to the range today. It is brand new. Fucking thing kept locking the bolt back with the last round in the magazine. Did it like 4x. And the stupid magazine was really hard to get seated properly. Couldn't imagine trying to do while someone was trying to kill me. That being said after blowing through a magazine getting used to the weapon I took 10 shots at 300 yards with iron sights. 7 out of 10 hits on a standard qual target. Iron sights. In comparison I brought out an AR with an Eotech and hit 9 out of 10 at 300 yards. Don't be fooled AK's are more accurate than you think, and less reliable than people want to make them seem.

That being said I can't believe I sold mine. Still pissed. AK ammo is really cheap right now and my 300 blackout ammo is fucking ridiculous expensive.

Final point for original poster. Buy quality. Don't buy the cheapest piece of **** you can. Think of your first gun purchase like it will be the only one you will ever own. You don't need a Wilson Combat 1911 with night sights, etc. But don't buy a Hi-Point. If you can only afford $500 right now then maybe save up til you get $700 and get something REALLY nice. Unfortunately the more guns you get and the more you get into shooting the word "nice" becomes relative.

I've always had an instinct to shy away from the less expensive brands and pedigrees. It could be totally unjustified, but I've yet to have to save the dollars and keep up my shooting habit. Hopefully I won't have to jump that bridge.

If I had my druthers, my for-fun gun would be a S&W 686P with the 4 or 6" barrel. What can I say? I've always loved revolvers and westerns, and that gun is great-looking and shoots awesome.

[wetware]

Do you think that shooting with .22 ammo improves your fundamentals, or makes you more complacent in the way you grip and deal with recoil? I'm not so worried about the cost, but I do wonder if shooting a 9mm ONLY is the equivalent of never sparring with big gloves or headgear.

Fundamentals and dealing with recoil are, IMO, different skills. Starting with something like a .22 actually seems to generally help those without familiarity with firearms develop skill while not gaining bad habits like jerking the trigger or flinching because they expect shoulder-bruising force or a big scary boom.

I am inclined to keep the rounds uniform across as many weapons as possible, but I do wonder if a 9mm FMJ should give me concerns about stopping power. Should I stockpile something like that for range only, and then have another kind of 9mm cartridge when I'm shootin' for keeps?

You should at least fire a hundred rounds or so of whatever HP ammo you plan on keeping around through your firearms. That gives you knowledge on if and how they'll handle differently when you're using different ammunition. Another thing to keep in mind is that ammo does have a shelf life. As ammo gets older, use the old stuff to refresh your memory but for general range use FMJ is just fine.

[Robstafarian]

She shot the P229 at the range as well as a similar Ruger to the one I posted, and she liked the Sig less. That was my thinking behind the picks.

So she got some range time with an unnecessarily small pistol, and that's why you've selected an unnecessarily small pistol for her? Seriously, get something service sized if concealed carry isn't a concern. My only gun is a full sized M1911A1 clone, and that will only be an issue if I want to carry concealed (if I can't conceal what I have, lots of snubbies are available for less than the $400 my pistol cost me).

For more on why I keep bringing up size:
"House" vs. "Carry Guns" by Stephen A. Camp

[Robstafarian]

I am inclined to keep the rounds uniform across as many weapons as possible, but I do wonder if a 9mm FMJ should give me concerns about stopping power. Should I stockpile something like that for range only, and then have another kind of 9mm cartridge when I'm shootin' for keeps?

Adding to what Wetware said, because I forgot to multi-quote, I'll point out that I consider FMJ a last resort for defensive shooting...especially in something as small, light, and fast as 9mm Parabellum. Winchester USA (aka "Winchester White Box" or "WWB") ammunition is available in JHP format, and it's actually a decent performer. The bullet design used in WWB isn't as old as you might think, bested within Winchester's range by their Ranger and PDX1 lines.

The wide availability and low cost of WWB means that you can cover both bases with one kind of ammunition, greatly simplifying reliability testing. A lot of people like 124gr for defensive loads in that caliber, but WWB JHP is only available in 115gr and 147gr. Again, I'd go with the heaviest option. For reference, MidwayUSA has 147gr WWB JHP for $19 per 50 rounds.

[vashanka]

Buy reliable and durable firearms, ones that fit you and that you like. Train with them a lot.
Get a rifle, 5.56 or 308; get a shotgun, 12 ga; get a pistol, 9 mm or 45. Spend the rest on ammo and mags.

[Gabetuno]

So she got some range time with an unnecessarily small pistol, and that's why you've selected an unnecessarily small pistol for her? Seriously, get something service sized if concealed carry isn't a concern. My only gun is a full sized M1911A1 clone, and that will only be an issue if I want to carry concealed (if I can't conceal what I have, lots of snubbies are available for less than the $400 my pistol cost me).

For more on why I keep bringing up size:
"House" vs. "Carry Guns" by Stephen A. Camp

Again, the size choice is about the size of her hands. She couldn't grip down comfortably on a P226 or a Glock 17, and she therefore did less well shooting them. When we gave her the smaller "conceal" gun, she shot much better.

[Gabetuno]

After Wetware's comments, I think my first purchase here might be a .22. I had a lot of fun with a Ruger 22/45, and as I understand it they're fairly cheap. My thought right now is to spend on one, put a ton of rounds through it, and get comfortable with my trigger pull and sight picture. Anybody advise against the 22/45?