Weights training and martial arts

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 3:23pm

Originally Posted by battlefields

I'm interested in how anyone could say that bench press has little application to martial arts, I'm assuming it is referring to stand up arts.

I say it has little application because its an isolation exercise for big pecs. There is nothing wrong with that but I don't see it as a useful lift for a grappler. You need pulling and pressing power for grappling no doubt but the standard bench press is not in my opinion the best tool for the job. I am not an armchair theorist, I do Judo and Jiu Jitsu as well as a lot of stand up work. I haven't bothered with the bench press in many years and the two most common comments I get from my partners is how ungodly strong and flexible I am when rolling.

I do have a few favored chest emphasis exercises however. The 1/4 getup as already mentioned I like a lot. Its especially fun with a medicine ball and used as an explosive movement. A lot of the "chest" exercises I use are crush and bar bending work from John Brookfield. Check out his books "The Grip Masters Manual" and "Mastery of Hand Strength" for ideas.

Now as far as concerns for shoulder health goes I always suggest movement health sessions and proper recovery work to protect the joints. If you are not doing this than you put yourself in harms way. One of my top 10 shoulder health exercises is the kettlebell armbar. You can do this with dumbbells and clubbells too just start out light and you will be fine.

**Scrapper** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 3:59pm

If el Macho or Emevas were here you'd all get screamed at.

Any exercise that makes you stronger will help you. Force is force, and stronger muscles make more of it.

The bench press is not an isolation exercise, its a compound exercise. It makes the entire anterior chain stronger.

Weight training is a powerful tool, and it will only improve your fight game.

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***battlefields*** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 6:26pm

Yeah, I'm siding with Scrapper on this, bench ain't isolation and this claim alone decreases your cred, which is further decreased by the use of "[people tell me I'm] ungodly strong and flexible". What do you think of squats?

Also, where is Teh el Macho and Emevas? I miss those guys, they had the info.

**mrh80** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 6:48pm

Originally Posted by elipson

The youtube advice was as opposed to just doing it with NO instruction whatsoever. But if you want this guy to just fly at it without any idea how to do a proper deadlift, then who am I to say otherwise?

Also re: shoulder problems,
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...overhead_press

I'm not saying overhead press is necessarily bad, just that they may not be the best idea for everyone and can cause complications.

For a healthy person overhead lifting is excellent, although I recommend using a dumb bell or kettlebell as it is better for the shoulder.

My point was that he needs to seek someone qualified to teach him, particularly with the bench press and squat (which he should also do at some stage) as they are very technical lifts. Doing these lifts incorrectly will result in injury sooner or later.

The fact that someone stated the bench press is an isolation exercise is ridiculous and shows the lack of understanding of this lift. Really the OP has enough information in the stickies to create a program for himself. The stronglifts program is Ok, although he may have to reduce the volume if it is impacting on his martial arts training. The main thing to take away is not to do isolation lifts as a beginner new to training.

**elipson** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 7:42pm

My point was that he needs to seek someone qualified to teach him, particularly with the bench press and squat (which he should also do at some stage) as they are very technical lifts. Doing these lifts incorrectly will result in injury sooner or later.

Here we can both agree.

For a healthy person overhead lifting is excellent, although I recommend using a dumb bell or kettlebell as it is better for the shoulder.

Many people have internally rotated shoulders and don't realize it until they get an injury. That's how I found out, hence why I'm not a big fan of overhead pressing. Don't get me wrong, I WISH I could do them, but everytime I try my shoulder feels terrible.

Interestingly enough, my roomate is a rock-climber, and by that I mean he climbs 5 days a week even in the winter, and he has been told that his shoulders are rotated too much to the exterior, due to all the back work he does with climbing.

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 9:12pm

Originally Posted by battlefields

Yeah, I'm siding with Scrapper on this, bench ain't isolation and this claim alone decreases your cred, which is further decreased by the use of "[people tell me I'm] ungodly strong and flexible". What do you think of squats?

You are correct bench pressing is not an isolation exercise, don't know why I was thinking that, I suppose I was just being overly critical as most of the time when people bench its because they want a big shiny set of pecs. As for the strong and flexible thing... Hey its what I'm told. I certainly have not had any anterior chain issues. I still am of the opinion that there are better uses of training time than the bench press. As for squats so long as you've got the knees and know how to do it correctly go for it. I don't have great knees so I don't squat heavy these days. Both barbell squat and bench press should be done with a spotter and you should be coached in how to do them correctly.

Originally Posted by mrh80

The fact that someone stated the bench press is an isolation exercise is ridiculous and shows the lack of understanding of this lift.

Yes as stated before I was off my head there (its vicodins fault I tell you!). I understand the lift fine and I've used it in the past. I am just not a fan of it and cannot recommend it be used unless you have a specific strength deficit along the anterior chain that needs to be addressed.

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 9:59pm

I've been told I am strong, it was a backhanded compliment. The guy was telling me I wasn't using technique, that I was using my strength, which was a nice way of saying "you ain't learning **** about grappling", at least that is what I took from it. I've also been told I was incredibly flexible because I am incredibly flexible, especially for my size. My question now is: so what? You're strong and flexible, I'm strong and flexible.

Look, I am not going to say that you can't hold an opinion on the subject, nor am I going to call you wrong. My opinion is that when there are experts (stronglifts5x5, rippetoe) on strength say that bench and squats make the beginnings of a good strength program, then I am going to seriously think about bench and squats as exercises I should be putting in my program. I am not taking away from your other suggestions, they seem to compliment a program including them anyway (from my entirely non expert opinion).

I have been under the impression that strengthening the anterior chain is something that should always be done, not just making up for a "strength deficit". I was lead to believe it served to strengthen the core, indeed that it was crucial in doing so. Squats, bench and deadlift all work that chain, from my understanding, which links in with the core. I don't know, I take in a lot of information when I am researching, find what I need and leave the info in the attic of my mind, so this could just be jumbled nonsense as I try and sift through that dusty attic. Let me know if you know more than me here anyone.

Also, squats and knees? Dude, I had to quit judo a couple of years ago because some idiot was fucking around and shoulder barged my knee hard in the opposite direction that it should go. I couldn't walk properly for weeks and when I started training again, about a month later, I started the stronglifts program because it gets you to start using just the barbell and my knee required TLC. Well, that program got me to squatting 97.5kg on what was a weakened knee, a knee that was never stronger before or since the program.

I suppose I am asking for some research/evidence. Members of Bullshido in the past with impressive credentials have recommended Stronglifts or Starting Strength as a program to implement alongside Martial Arts training. I'd like to see a compelling reason to trust your program/ ideology. I am not attacking you here, it is just a necessity for n00bs to know that if they are to follow your advice, that they can be confident it will provide results (again, the exercises you proposed, to me, seem like good exercises).

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 3/04/2012 11:49pm

The strong flexible thing is only meant to mean so much as "hey I train. I do the grappling and base my conditioning around the needs of my martial arts practice and I've gotten good feedback." Its nothing more than that.

Programs like strong lifts and ripetoe are perfectly fine. He asked for advice and I give him a breakdown of something meant to build a good base line of limit strength without over working him for the rest of his practice. I chose 4 exercises that I felt would be most useful to his goals and could be completed quickly. Nowhere did I say my program is the be all end all or is it better than any other. Its also not meant to be done forever.

As to credentials I am a certified CST instructor (circular strength training), going for coach level this year. I've also engaged in Kettlebell lifting, powerlifting, olympic lifting and strongman lifts. Just to be clear I never competed in any of that I just trained in it for a time.

Also once again for clarity YES the anterior chain needs training too. I never said it didn't I ONLY said that the bench press is not my first choice for that goal and I would use it only as a tool to improve a strength deficit before going onto other tools. I am not saying never bench press or that anything is really wrong with bench pressing. I only am saying that for a grappler with limited training time the bench press is not the best choice. If you however have a significant strength deficit along the anterior chain you might do well to make use of the bench press. Otherwise I personally would not. That is opinion and nothing more.

As for squats and knees. Thats great and all about your knee. I didn't say not to do them did I? Some knee damage is worse than others. For the most part squats are good for the knees but some people with knee injury should not do them. My knees are pretty thrashed from years of stupid ****. I am erring on the side of caution and saying if you're healthy enough and know what you're doing than do it. Sounds reasonable right?

I hope that clears things up for you Battlefields