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  1. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2012 9:07pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brody00 View Post
    if someone is teaching BJJ as part of a SD program, that person should be a qualified BJJ instructor, especially if that person is representing themselves as a BB.
    I will also agree with this, and go one step further. If you are teaching any subject or discipline, you should be qualified. I teach a number of things; if I wasn't qualified (in my case, certified), I wouldn't be comfortable doing this. Taser International certified me to teach their user-level program. P.P.C.T. (Pressure Point Control Tactics) certified me to teach their user-level course. LaserShot certified me to train on their use of force simulator, etc, etc, etc.
    Here is the problem--there is no central body to certify martial arts instructors. This point has been argued here and elsewhere before, and still, there is no solution. Any joker can start his own style of martial art, and name himself the founder, hanshi, soke, shidoshi, renshi, master, grandmaster, etc, etc.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2012 9:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys need to stop. Your bad analogies and conjecture are killing me. You both apparently don't understand Self defense.

    Since we are talking conjecture, certification doesn't necessarily mean anything either.
  3. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2012 9:51pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    certification doesn't necessarily mean anything either.
    No certification doesn't, but there has to be some way to regulate the business (it is, after all, a business) of martial arts. I'll drop out of this one while I'm just a little bit behind.
  4. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 12:40am

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You both need to remember you are in MABS. Also, you both need to stop being asses. No, there is nothing wrong with teaching kids self defense. There are many parents, on this website, that will tell you that SD classes helped their child or children.

    The wrong occurs in teaching kids that they can beat up any and all adults.
    We appear to have several questions here.

    Q1: Is it wrong for an instructor with a questionable or fake BJJ black belt to teach self defense to children?

    Answer1: It is fraud for a false BJJ black belt to teach anyone BJJ skills while lying about his rank. If not for these false claims the student could presumably seek out better instruction.

    Answer2: It is more likely then not that a person with a BJJ black belt that was awarded by a legitimate BJJ instructor would be more competent in their instruction and their understanding of techniques then someone who made up their rank or obtained it through pretense. Is it impossible for a person falsifying their rank to black belt to teach good BJJ techniques to beginners? No. But beyond the issues of false advertising, the chances of worthwhile and competent instruction drop dramatically given the shady nature of frauds we have met.

    Issue two what is a "fake" black belt?

    Lets use Ninjitsu as an example. Lets also suppose Hatsumi is legitimate and Ashida Kim is a gut wrenching fake.

    Example 1) I study diligently for years under Hatsumi and am awarded a black belt in Ninjitsu, is this a legitimate black belt? Yes it is, the instructor provided quality instruction and I presumably am representative of such approach.

    Example 2) I go to Japan and study with Hatsumi, and he gives me a quicky black belt. Am I a fraud? No because, I did not attempt to defraud anyone, instead Hatsumi fucked up and threw away all attempts at quality control producing a McDojo level black belt. I may sincerely think I have the skills that a well trained black belt possesses even though I should not be teaching Ninjitsu.

    Example 3) I get off the plane and buy a black belt from Hatsumi for $2,000. Both he and I know, regardless of what is said, that I am purchasing rank, and objectively we are cooperating in a fraudulant ranking. Now change the facts around, streach out the training, and make the cash payment less and intent can be argued. Crappy results without the intent to sell rank become mcdojo rather than bullshido i.e. lies often intended to defraud others including third parties.

    Example four) I print up my own BJJ certificates and claim I am a BJJ black belt. That's generally fraud because people will think that I was promoted by someone else who was a legitimate teacher. I've only seen one person who self promoted himself from BJJ brown belt to black belt who was honest about doing so and had similar skill to a regular BJJ black belt.

    Example five) I buy rank from Ashida Kim, a fraud. Same analysis as example three only even more obvious.

    Example six) I am deluded enough to think that Ashida Kim is a real Ninja, I go to Florida and he gives me a Black Belt. I am not knowingly committing fraud by claiming I am a Ninjitsu black belt but I am a McDojo artist and as soon as I learn or should realize that Ashida is a fraud, I would be committing fraud by still claiming to be a Ninjitsu Black Belt. In any case I own a fake black belt without initially realizing that I am the product of a fraud.

    I do not know anything about the subject of this thread but these six scenarios basically apply to almost all circumstances and determine whether someone is a "fake" or a "fraud" or simply the product of a McDojo. While normally a martial artist possessing a fake belt and using it to teach is committing fraud, there are rare cases where someone might have such a belt and also be a dupe.
    Last edited by Sam Browning; 2/18/2012 1:07am at .
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 2:34am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no clue why you quoted my post. Just in case here is what it is referring to in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by brody00 View Post
    That's the thing, he teaches little kids self defense. Isn't that just wrong?

    Also, he doesn't roll w anyone, for obvious reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Of course, it is wrong!!! Is your objective to have everyone on this forum to agree with you? Surely, you know this is wrong and do not really need a second opinion. As I said before, draw your own conclusion.



    Is it because he gets owned when he rolls? Surely, he could find one of his students to be compliant and demonstrate techniques.
    No, there is nothing wrong with teaching kids self defense. No one has checked his other creds and if he has legit, no not good, alive, or bullshido accepted arts, he can teach kids self defense.


    Yes, even with a blue belt in BJJ and other legit arts you can still teach kids SD.
  6. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 2:44am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fn...layer_embedded

    I found this....it looks like a TKD school to me. I checked out their FB page and did not find anything on this Erick dude. I did find a pic of Joe Moreira with a Joseph Paunon who was promoted to a black belt by Joe. This Paunon guy is a student of the Livermore Martial Arts Academy. That might be the confusion there.
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/18/2012 2:54am at .
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 3:11am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2fn...layer_embedded

    I found this....it looks like a TKD school to me. I checked out their FB page and did not find anything on this Erick dude. I did find a pic of Joe Moreira with a Joseph Paunon who was promoted to a black belt by Joe. This Paunon guy is a student of the Livermore Martial Arts Academy. That might be the confusion there.
    Yes, I didn't post that because I didn't want to add a student to the mix who may or may not be duped. What confusion are you talking about?
  8. brody00 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 3:13am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    No, there is nothing wrong with teaching kids self defense. No one has checked his other creds and if he has legit, no not good, alive, or bullshido accepted arts, he can teach kids self defense.


    Yes, even with a blue belt in BJJ and other legit arts you can still teach kids SD.
    Again, my point was not that teaching kids SD is wrong. I think teaching kids SD is important.

    My point was it's WRONG to advertise that you are a BB teaching BJJ (as part of a kids SD program), if you are not actually a BB in BJJ. I would feel ripped off, and concerned, if I found out my kids were learning BJJ techniques from someone who claimed to be a BB, but was not.

    Not arguing that they couldn't learn to defend themselves using BJJ taught by a Blue Belt. Many schools do this, and that's fine. It's the false advertising/misleading part that I think is wrong/unacceptable.

    Hope that clarifies my previous post (which I typed quickly, and obviously not clearly enough, via mobile).
  9. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 3:20am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Yes, I didn't post that because I didn't want to add a student to the mix who may or may not be duped. What confusion are you talking about?
    Maybe this Joseph is the black belt they are referring to because I could not find anything on this Eric guy claiming to be a black belt from the website. Actually it is a crappy website for a school as far as instructor information goes.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2012 3:22am

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    Quote Originally Posted by brody00 View Post
    Again, my point was not that teaching kids SD is wrong. I think teaching kids SD is important. .
    Take a deep breath and read my post again.

    I have no clue why you quoted my post. Just in case here is what it is referring to in the first place.
    That's pretty clear I was talking to Sam not you as it appears he read Waaaaaaaay more into my post than was necessary.
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