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  1. feelingofpower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Villari's: A discussion between myself and one of Villari's "Seven Dragons"

    Hello you all, I am brand new to the Bullshido community. I hope you will all forgive me for making my first post in this forum section....but I was hoping to enlist some help for a little project I have been working on.

    http://villarisomerville.com/images/grandmaster1.gif

    Once upon a time, I had the ambition to start training a martial art. I didn't want to take traditional karate or taekwondo, as was popular in my area. One day, I saw a Villari's martial arts studio, and after talking with the head instructor, I knew I had to try it.

    Needless to say, I eventually found out the martial art was crap, and moved on. What I am trying to do now, however, is have a debate with the head instructor, who happens to be one of Villari's top students, or "Seven Dragons".

    http://villarisomerville.com/Seven%20Dragons.htm


    I will enclose our conversation as it has thus far unfolded in parts. Should anyone in the community have a question that they would like me to ask, please bring it up.

    My goal is this:

    Either I can win the debate, and I can force the instructor into a verbal submission

    Or I will be humbled, and forced to rejoin and relearn Fred Villari's Shaolin Kempo Karate.
  2. feelingofpower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The first part of our discussion is as follows (I apologize for the length):

    ME (feelingofpower):

    I believe that the martial arts are like religion, to be honest. Everyone has their own interpretation, everyone believes their vision to be correct, and there are sides and arguments that people take.
    >
    >
    > Similar to how in religion there is a debate about "Creationism vs. Evolution", in martial arts there is a debate regarding "sport vs. street". From my memory, you yourself took the "street" side of the debate, preferring to avoid training for competition in favor of a traditional martial arts practice.
    >
    >
    > My main discussion point to begin, would be on the usefulness of focusing on kempos and combinations in the learning of a martial art. My stance is, of course, that they are largely a waste of time, time which could be better spent training and practicing for contact sparring.
    >
    >
    > I defend my views with the following quote, taken from the reliable martial arts forum www.bullshido.net
    >
    >
    > The following is a test:
    >
    >
    > 1. How confident am I that I can defend myself against equal sized or larger opponents that don't attach in a prescribed manner?
    >
    > 2. How much of my training time is spent doing increasingly complex "Punch/Defend" drills that are never applied in sparring?
    >
    > 3. How often do we spar, and what sort of contact do we spar at? What kind of gear do we wear?
    >
    > 4. How fit am I after doing this style for so long?
    >
    > ---
    >
    > Now, these are the answers you WANT.
    >
    > 1. I am very confident that I can handle myself against an equal sized or larger opponent because I regularly practice alive with equal sized or larger opponents.
    >
    > 2. Very little time is spent doing complex "Punch/Defense" drills (called Defensive Maneuvers and, creatively enough, "Kempos"), and the few drills we practice are easily applied in sparring.
    >
    > 3. We spar at medium to hard contact sparring, and we wear MMA gloves or boxing gloves with boxing headgear. Sparing takes place at least once a week.
    >
    > 4. I am extremely fit from doing class, and it is impossible to train there without getting fit because the classes are so rigorous.
    >
    > ---
    >
    > These are the answers you don't want.
    >
    > 1. I'm not sure if I can defend myself because I've never had someone attack me realistically.
    >
    > 2. We spend the majority of the class doing these drills.
    >
    > 3. We spar infrequently, and when we do we point spar. We wear foam dipped gear and chest pads.
    >
    > 4. Class isn't very hard, and I often need to do cardio outside of class to keep in shape. We have a lot of fat blackbelts.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I am curious, what is your take on this? I am obviously aware that your martial arts experience is far greater than my own, and I mean no disrespect, I simply hope to approach this as a student coming to a master..
    >
  3. feelingofpower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    VILLARI"S MASTER RESPONSE:

    For some its a religion, others its a spiritual journey. I have tried out many martial arts styles long before settling with Grandmaster Villari's system.
    >
    > The reasons for this are simple ... he continues to evolve his own style, there is still a higher rank than myself to learn from and the simple fact that I am still learning (continued education) is of high value to me ... being that I have been involved with the arts since I was 6 years old.
    >
    > I have gravitated to street (practical) martial arts because of my personal experiences and contract work I have picked up on the side. It has kept me alive and my clients too. It does not make one style less or more than what I teach. Simply put, there are just different parts of the pie. Ju Jitsu, wrestling, judo, etc cover the grappling and some throwing aspects, Tae Kwon Do, Leaping Kung, Kickboxing, etc cover the kicking aspects, karate, krav maga, boxing, etc cover the striking aspects. There is no "Ultimate" system for everybody. There may be for certain people though. The strength of the Villari system is that it is very diverse, but it takes much longer to master. Take other systems that do not mix and you master sooner but have a limited experience. There is no right or wrong ,,, only choices and the egos that argue who is better. Ask any martial artist and they will tell you they are studying the best system.
    >
    > If you read my response to your yelp posting, you will find my answers about kempos and combinations there.
    >
    > And of course I am going to give you the clearest perspective of the arts that I can ....
    >
    > You will work your ass off in training ... via sweat, blood, bruising, and who knows what else ... and all the years you put into the training ... all the drills, conditioning, testing, pressure ... all of that for what??? A fight you may get in within your life time. The interesting part is how much more pain and all you go through compared to how little you will endure in a real fight. I hope this provides some thought.
    > Most martial artists do not even think about how much harder it is to train compared to a fight.
    >
    >
    > As for the answers you WANT? I do not know ... everybody has different reasons for studying.
    >
    > Those questions you have there would indicate that there are some systems that are bad. Aikido? T'ai Chi?
    >
    > Everything must start with basic structure for an educational process to take hold. So ....
    >
    > 1) defend oneself against equal or larger in any attack? Name one system you can do this the first week? 2nd week? 3rd week? Month? You need to start with training and develop skills against various attacks.
    >
    > 2) I have seen combinations and kempos and other techniques pulled off in sparring and fighting situations. Drills are applied if the practitioner makes the drill become a skill. For that argument lets take school or college ???? All that stuff you will use in what career? You will only use certain aspects and you do not always know which ones ... I know that I did not care much about writing, nor did I ever think I would need to ever use more than simple sentences. Now I am writing a book, screenplays, and I write many things weekly for my Qigong curriculum. I did not care much for math even though I was good it at. Now I am doing my own accounting and taxes.
    >
    > 3) How often to spar? Depends, for the first half to three quarters of a year, little. There are blocks, kicks, punching, footwork and trying to make parts of them work together. For my school, after about 9 to 12 months we get sparring going much more. But by then they have learned more control, because white belts are deadly because of their lack of experience and lack of control. Purple it starts to take some shape but also the circular part of the art begins. So now back to beginner status with the roundhouse, crescent, reverse crescent, spinning back, axe, reverse axe, and many other circular kicks, not to mention the circular arm strikes. Its all a process. As you get higher in rank (Green Belt) light contact is mandatory, brown more and full for black belts (controlled though).
    >
    > 4) Well how long of a time are we talking? This directly applies to the above 3 questions being answered. Heck, I can be doing karate for 5 years, showing 1 class per week and not practicing. How good will I really be? It is clearly a bank account, if you invest a lot into your account, you will have a lot to take from it.
    >
    > The reason I look up to Grandmaster Villari, is not because he can beat to me to a pulp (and he can easily), not because I can not hit him (I have tried many times each year), because he works out at least 4 hours a day when he is in Florida. I see him often. He works his butt off and of all people he does not need to. He reminds me of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham screwed up so many times it makes most peoples heads spin, but because of his willingness to try so many things and so many times he has also had some of the greatest achievements.
    >
    > Being that you are younger I will shift it to something you should be able to relate to ... Blizzard Entertainment. They have tried many things and failed, but when they put something out ... it ROCKS! They work their butts off, spending many many nights there, working till they get it right or as right as they can before they release (yes I am awaiting Diablo 3)..
    >
    > I hope this helps you understand my point of view from my personal experiences. They are exactly right for what I have experienced in my lifetime so far. But they do not all apply to everybody.
    >
  4. feelingofpower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:22pm

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    ME (feelingofpower):


    Why has the villari's system never produced a capable professional fighter? I am of course talking about mma.
  5. feelingofpower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:23pm

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    VILLARI"S MASTER:


    Too many rules.

    Read the rules for MMA. Eye gouging, throat grabbing and tearing, kicking them while they are down, groin tearing ... any of these things that would turn the table when you are saving your life ... they are not allowed.

    Why are there men against men and women against women in similar weight divisions? Fighting for your life is far different then fighting for ego or money. Put up any MMA guy against a guy with a knife. The smart ones will run away or at least have the common sense to not get in close until the knife is disarmed or under control.

    MMA on TV is just very aggressive fighting with rules. Plenty of tough guys. Many of them out of jail or prison. I know this for a fact as I have friend in the industry.

    Too bad MMA does not send a positive message. There is no Fred Villari, Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee type showing with true character is about. I have heard of the language used, the gestures made to the audiences even after a win. Many of these fighters have contemplated suicide and some have sadly been successful at doing it. This is not the normal behavior of 99% of martial artists on the planet.

    I have been suggesting this for a while ... if you want to see real MMA ... put 3 guys in the ring. Pull the names from a hat, dump them in the ring and go. You will not see much grappling, well not much until maybe one of the three are down.

    Just food for thought!
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:25pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where's the part where addresses your fitness question? Cause a guy that works out for 4 hours every day probably doesn't have a very good exercise method if he looks like this:

  8. Bad Apple is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:46pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by feelingofpower View Post
    VILLARI"S MASTER:


    Too many rules.
    Yeah that old thing. Just give him a big old "citation needed" for all that eye gouging throat tearing stuff. How can you possibly practice such techniques ? How can you possibly hope to use a technique that you never practice ?

    The guy sounds like a typical martial LARPist. You'll never "win" an argument on their board the best you can hope for is a moral victory by being banned by exposing their poor arguments and magical thinking. Demand proof of EVERYTHING they claim their art has or can achieve in a fight. Otherwise they're just a bunch of dry land swimmers.


    As for the dirty fighting arguments this is a copypasta of mine from another website on this very subject : Hitting to the back of the head was legal for about the first 10 years of the UFC. The entire run of Pride FC ('00-'09) and about six decades of Vale Tudo (IVC/WVC) in Brazil. It had a very low % success even when it was allowed. In order to receive legit status in the US the UFC and other orgs had to adopt much of the rules that governed boxing like no rabbit punches. Small joint locks were allowed once upon a time but nobody used them. Headbuts were allowed but mostly just caused cuts.

    All that goes for groin attacks too. That stuff was NEVER as effective as any Hollywood movie would have you believe. Hit up Holy Moment with a PM he is the keeper of ancient MMA videos here or just search the vid section for his stuff

    All the shiat that poser martial LARPists say now disqualifies their particular style from competition was actually allowed about 15 years ago. Wing chun, kung fu, jeet kun do, kenpo, and of course ninjitsu(even really obscure stuff like penkak silat) had at least one dumbassed McDojo dry land swimmer that drank too much of their own kool aid though they could fight a live resisting opponent by only practicing katas and rehearsed drills. "Grab my wrist ...no not like that". They were butchered and pretty quickly those just watching started making excuses or just tsk,tsk'ed the very concept of competition altogether.



    If you can't beat someone on the mats you don't have a prayer at beating them in a alley. How the hell can you practice an eye gouge or a throat strike to any degree of usefulness without killing or crippling training partners ? Chances are that anyone claiming that their "dirty street fighting techniques" will win over a guy that actually trains for competition does so because he doesn't do any "live" training at all.



    The only actual "too d34dly for the octagram" move that was actually show to be effective were kicks/stomps/knees to a downed opponent. See any highlight vid about Wanderlei Silva.
  9. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by feelingofpower View Post
    VILLARI"S MASTER:


    Many of them out of jail or prison. I know this for a fact as I have friend in the industry.

    Many of these fighters have contemplated suicide and some have sadly been successful at doing it.

    Just food for thought!
    Site the exact people and numbers or STFU. This is complete bullshit.

    Put up any MMA guy against a guy with a knife. The smart ones will run away or at least have the common sense to not get in close until the knife is disarmed or under control.
    I guess he didn't see the article with Guy Metzger who actually did fight against a guy on the street that had a knife.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 4:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The real problem is the implication that Villari's vs. Knife is any better than MMA vs. Knife.

    Oh and I hate the "Will Smith Defense" as well.
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