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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2012 6:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dissertations.
    Ya it's been tough meshing these together, the only advantage is that i didn't have to learn how to rotate my hips at all when i punch since i definitely have that down pretty solid already, and i'm pretty tough to hit as a result of the karate foot work (at least as far as getting away).
    Yes, and I used to believe my kung fu helped me more than it really did.

    Practice boxing and forget trying to mesh the **** together. The real problem? 1 day a week of boxing is not going to override 9 years of Karate, especially when you continue to train Karate diligently.

    Also, lose the whole karate vs. boxing attitude (no not the negative) and just train.
  2. shotokanbjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 2:26am


     Style: Shotokan karate, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I started writing you a thing about the backfist vs boxing, and looking at it now, it can seem kinda cynical and maybe even like style bashing, but have a look and see if you can relate to any of it. These are more common problems you may find than a scathing "thou shall not backfist!!" kind of rant. I still keep the backfist as a tool but not really for boxing. Anyway, here's some thoughts about that from a guy that's had a dojo-dominating backfist fail against pugilism:

    You will be hard pressed to make a trapping backfist work with proper boxing gloves on, and it'll likely lack any pepper through the gloves. Not just the gloves though, but the stance you'll probably be facing. I used to do those ones where you'd slap down with the back hand as you do a backfist, but that'll tend to work best against a more typical karate/kung fu stance. By that, I mean a more sideways stance typically with the lead hand more extended and the rear hand a little lower than a typical boxing stance. When the body is turned to a more square position, with the forearms vertical in a boxing guard, its hard to create that same line to attack. If you do, you may notice that the boxer has some tools to deal with the attack even though its unconventional:
    -defensive use of the shoulder may stifled your attack even if your hands get past their hands (defensive shoulder use seems pretty uncommon in karate and kung fu).

    -tucking the chin will not only protect the chin, but put the head in a better position so a strike isn't so jarring. This sort of thing can even be used to hurt the fist of the puncher more than the head of the punched.

    -trying to slap down the lead hand of a boxer in order to create the backfist opening may result in the lead hand circling around your slap and into a hook (hard to block, because your rear hand will have dropped to perform the trap).

    -the backfist part will come from a position where the fist has crossed the centerline. Momentary as it may be, that's dangerous for that side, in case they're throwing a cross or overhand as you're stepping into the backfist. You can mitigate this a little bit by using the position as a quick Dracula style cover.

    Anyway, these were the pitfalls I found with that style of technique when you bring it to a boxer. Another important thing: the backfist isn't really allowed in boxing. For example, in Olympic boxing you're only allowed to hit with the front of the fist, so that excludes backfists (and other weird strikes). Also they probably won't like it if you throw the spinning backfist in boxing (the pivot punch). You'll likely find that its viewed as a very hard-hitting gimmick punch that only lands because its so unexpected, and that might make the guy throwing it kind of a tiresome pain in the ass to spar with.
    So i just typed up a huge well worded response covering everything you just said, and my computer decided to freeze and then "refresh" itself -_- It's 2:30am and i'm not going to retype it lol. Anyways those are all solid points, part of why i think i can do it a bit better than some is because i'm a south paw, and the people i spar with are mostly used to orthodox, so they don't seem to be able to handle that level of speed coming off the RIGHT hand as opposed to the left.

    Ya i'm starting to see the value in "turtling" (the defensive shoulder) alot more, it definitely has been proving useful! Been working on tucking the chin more as well. As for it working against me you're right, it proves to be difficult to hit them with that sort of offense when their chin is down and they're using their shoulders. Aside from the "trapping" the only time i've actually landed a back fist that had any sort of damage attached to it was when i feinted a low left hand (i'm south paw like i said) after getting them to cover up against it, and i was able to make them cover up their ribs a bit more, i was able to smack them pretty solid, though again the gloves made the damage significantly less than it would have been otherwise.

    By "dracula" style are you referring to covering my face up with my forearm and "bicep" as the fist retracts? Just want to be clear on that.

    Well i'm at an MMA gym so while we are training boxing, people tend to have a bit more unorthodox versions of it. Most of the people there are by no means "pure" boxers, it's just that my coaches are really fucking good at it lol.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:20am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotokanbjj View Post
    By "dracula" style are you referring to covering my face up with my forearm and "bicep" as the fist retracts? Just want to be clear on that.
    I think you're thinking of a regular elbow cover, with the hand next to the same side ear to create a triangle. Well, if your arm's in a horizontal position across the centerline, you can kinda do that with the tricep side as a deflecting surface, and the point of the elbow as a blocking surface. Imagine Count Dracula covering his face with his cape- that's what the position looks like. Its something that you can throw up to protect yourself if your arm is across the centerline and it would take too long to bring your arm all the way across to defend. There's an amount of body english using the shoulder and head, as well as the torso. You might find your arm across the centerline in the case of a backfist, or more likely in the case that you threw an overly wide hook that misses.
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 11:45am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Here's Marc Denny in a Dracula position:
  5. shotokanbjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 3:31pm


     Style: Shotokan karate, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I think you're thinking of a regular elbow cover, with the hand next to the same side ear to create a triangle. Well, if your arm's in a horizontal position across the centerline, you can kinda do that with the tricep side as a deflecting surface, and the point of the elbow as a blocking surface. Imagine Count Dracula covering his face with his cape- that's what the position looks like. Its something that you can throw up to protect yourself if your arm is across the centerline and it would take too long to bring your arm all the way across to defend. There's an amount of body english using the shoulder and head, as well as the torso. You might find your arm across the centerline in the case of a backfist, or more likely in the case that you threw an overly wide hook that misses.
    Yes that's what i was thinking of, though the pic you posted is more or less the same thing (albeit with the other hand in a slightly different spot) that i was thinking you meant :)

    Ya that position seems like it'd be good like you said for bigger hooks and maybe even a back fist in order to help cover up faster (no one wants to punch an elbow lol).

    We're doing MMA fighting tonight, w/e sparring i do get to do, i'm going to work on some of these points and a few other things i've been trying to put together myself as well :)
  6. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2012 7:37pm

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As we get older and have more of a skill base. (And leave our comfort zone less) we forget how hard it is to learn new things.

    You will get worse before you get better.

    Put real commitment into doing what you are told. Eventually it clicks

    And realise that just because you are not getting it does not mean there is something wrong. You are just not there yet.
    Last edited by gregaquaman; 2/08/2012 7:40pm at .
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  7. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 2:49pm

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Some things I really don't get. What's the difference between a boxing punch and a karate punch? They're the same exact thing, which is why boxing and karate are pretty much a classic American MA combo (hello Joe Lewis): there's very little conflict of technique, boxing just has a bunch of stuff Karate doesn't have (and vice versa). I'm sure the strategies/concepts are very different, but there shouldn't be much "I learned to punch like this and now they want me to punch like that" to trip you up.

    Gyaku tsuki IS a right straight. There is literally no difference except that some Karate stylists may hold their hands low and their stance/posture differently which gives the punch a different look at the start. It is the same dang punch though, using the same kinetic linking chain. Similarly, kizami tsuki IS a jab. Now, hook and uppercut also exist in Karate, but I understand few" traditional" karate dojos ever practice them (or practice them well), so fine, if you want to consider those boxing punches, fair enough.

    Secondly, Karate footwork is not straight back. I'm not trying to be rude, but that's you, not Karate (we all have shortcomings, myself very included). Shotokan is full of angles from white belt on; ippon kumite is all about drilling 45 degree movement + parry + counter. Even pointsparring, as much as I think pointsparring is a shitty way to train, does not teach straight back movement. That gives your opponent the entire ring to operate (and yourself penalties for running out of bounds). If you ever happen to watch high level sport krotty, after they score their one attack, the fighters angle or pivot off immediately, because one doesn't want to trade hits and leave it in the judges hands to say who hit whom first.

    Anywho, now that that's off my chest... Here's a few things off the top of my head I would think could be taken from Karate and applied to any martial art/combat sport:

    1. The mentality of avoiding damage instead of brawling and then suddenly launching into an attack at the right moment of opportunity. Follow up and swarm if it lands flush, escape and reset if it doesn't.

    2. A heightened sense of timing, distance, and reading tells for the purposes of countering.

    3. Explosive distance closing.

    4. Feints, drawing the opponent into doing things that you want them to do.

    Karate is not a collection of ridgehands and backfists any more than adding some throws to a martial art means you've combined it with Judo.

    Regardless, I support the "Just learn boxing when you're in boxing class" train of thought. You're only there one day a week, make the most of it.
    Last edited by maofas; 2/11/2012 2:55pm at . Reason: Grammar/spelling/tone
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 2:59pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    but there shouldn't be much "I learned to punch like this and now they want me to punch like that" to trip you up.
    It's funny because this is exactly what I have encountered and watched. There are hundreds of threads with Karate <insert any style> people flipping out because boxing coaches tell them they are doing it wrong.
  9. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 4:20pm

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    I have not seen any of those threads, but I can think of 4 likely reasons for why they wound up like that, but this isn't supposed to be about good/bad karate, but making the transition to boxing. I think Mikey (does he still post here?) once said something pretty insightful about how it doesn't matter what you've done previously, boxing is it's own thing and knowing how to box is different than knowing how to punch, and you're always going to get owned in boxing until you learn how to actually box.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2012 4:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    I have not seen any of those threads, but I can think of 4 likely reasons for why they wound up like that, but this isn't supposed to be about good/bad karate, but making the transition to boxing.
    You've been in a couple of those threads. Dude who said bad/good karate?

    No one told him to quit karate, that it was bad, or it was good. He is being told to stop trying to do what you just said.

    Do I need to spell it out?


    I think Mikey (does he still post here?) once said something pretty insightful about how it doesn't matter what you've done previously, boxing is it's own thing and knowing how to box is different than knowing how to punch, and you're always going to get owned in boxing until you learn how to actually box.
    Yes, kind of like what I and others just said. Y
    Last edited by It is Fake; 2/11/2012 4:57pm at .
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