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  1. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 3:50pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Are underhooks bad judo

    Ive been working hard to improve my koshiwaza part of this meant that i "started again" and revisited the basic koshi waza o-goshi. I never gave it much thougt or practise before but ive started to like the close gripping style of goshi.

    I have also been working on tsurikomi goshi and its coming along nicly in moveing and static uchikomi but not in randori. In randori im finding that the close gripping style of o goshi or an underhook instead of the lapel grip is alot easier to do throws like uchimata and harai goshi. Im also finding that other throws like sasae tsuri komiashi, ouchi gari and kosoto gake work well from the underhook grip and also a sode tsurikomi goshi using and armpit grip.I find it easy to get and keep both left handed and right handed against higher grades ans combine the throws together.

    My problem is that is my use of the underhook going to stunt my develpoment in judo? As i improve and face better opposition will i find it harder and harder to get the underhook ? Are there any decent gripping strategies to secure the underhook that i should work on?

    Im still working on throws from a standard lapel and sleeve grip aswell so i have other options if i cant secure the underhooks.

    cheers in advance.
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 4:04pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People use the underhook for the reasons you stated - throwing people from sleeve and lapel is hard. However the close contact situation makes throwing people of equal or lesser skill easier because it reduces the two major issues with throwing people - closing the space and controlling your opponents upper body.

    If you learn to throw from sleeve lapel you will find it really easy to throw people from the underhook. If you learn to throw people from the underhook you will only ever be able to throw people from the underhook.

    Everyone who does Judo has to make this decision: short term hardship for long term gain or short term gain for long term hardship.

    Usually the main deciding factor for people is the quality of coaches and training partners. If you're struggling to throw from sleeve and lapel, but the people who coach you and train with you are consistently pulling off clean throws from it, it gives you the faith to stick at it.

    If your coaches and training partners can't consistently from cleanly from sleeve and lapel and instead are heavily using round the back or other unothrodox grips then its very hard to keep the faith and stick with the hard route.
  3. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 5:01pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    If you learn to throw from sleeve lapel you will find it really easy to throw people from the underhook. If you learn to throw people from the underhook you will only ever be able to throw people from the underhook.

    Everyone who does Judo has to make this decision: short term hardship for long term gain or short term gain for long term hardship.

    .
    But what i dont understand is why is the lapel grip so important. Surley its easier for an opponent to break you lapel grip than it is to break a strong under hook? It seems easy when i have the lapel grip just to slip my hand under and get the underhook. Sometimes i even start with an armpit grip instead of the lapel so its easier to slip the hand under.

    This bring me to another question i have about gripping and gripping strategies. Whats the best way to go about gripping and throwing, is it better to learn to do a throw from many different grips or learn to throw from a prefered grip and develop a solid set of entries and gripping strategies to acheieve said grip?
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 5:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    But what i dont understand is why is the lapel grip so important. Surley its easier for an opponent to break you lapel grip than it is to break a strong under hook? It seems easy when i have the lapel grip just to slip my hand under and get the underhook. Sometimes i even start with an armpit grip instead of the lapel so its easier to slip the hand under.
    It is easier on people of equal or lesser skill if you come up against someone more skillfull you won't get that grip.

    This is always the hard thing for beginners to get their head around because the simplistic logic of 'if it works it must be right' is very difficult to de-construct in simple and clear ways.

    However, what needs to be understood is that technical mastery comes from being able to apply the technique from the most neutral situation, which is the sleeve and lapel. Technical mastery doesn't come from the simplest and closest gripping situation such as the underhook.

    I can barely maintain a right hand sleeve and lapel grip against my coach, getting anything closer and more upper body controlling is impossible I can't even get my hands in to position let alone keep the grip.

    However, that kind of pressure put me in good stead that I can not only achieve the sleeve lapel grip but consistently throw recreational black belts from it.

    Every single beginner I have ever known who has gone down the close contact gripping route has not only had **** Judo, they've also quit Judo before getting their dan grade.

    I know this sounds harsh, but I'm only trying to help people avoid the pitfalls I wasted time in and that I've seen cause others to leave the sport. However, at the end of the day the choice is up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    This bring me to another question i have about gripping and gripping strategies. Whats the best way to go about gripping and throwing, is it better to learn to do a throw from many different grips or learn to throw from a prefered grip and develop a solid set of entries and gripping strategies to acheieve said grip?
    Without a doubt its to learn to throw from a specific grip and learn the strategies for getting to that grip. Throwing from multiple grips is silly. Sure throwing from right hand sleeve lapel + right hand double lapel is fine. However, trying to master throwing form right hand, double lapel, left hand and everything in between is silly.

    The issue is that the movement patterns and associated skills are specific to each gripping pattern so if you want to be the best you can be, then you should concentrate your time on one grip.
  5. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 5:49pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thanks i appreciate the insite, i plan to in judo for the long haul so i suppose my focus should be primarily and throwing off of the lapel but not neglect other grips if they present themself, for example i like throw left sometimes ( im a righty) with o goshi by dropping the sleeve hand and grabing behing uke's back if uke has me with a high collar grip, if it presents itself why not use a certain grip.

    I hear loads of guys over on judo forum talking about being albe to throw from any grip or is that just japanese idealist crap?
  6. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2012 6:46pm


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    thanks i appreciate the insite, i plan to in judo for the long haul so i suppose my focus should be primarily and throwing off of the lapel but not neglect other grips if they present themself, for example i like throw left sometimes ( im a righty) with o goshi by dropping the sleeve hand and grabing behing uke's back if uke has me with a high collar grip, if it presents itself why not use a certain grip.


    I hear loads of guys over on judo forum talking about being albe to throw from any grip or is that just japanese idealist crap?
    Nothing wrong with being able to throw left and right off the same grip, what (I think) judoka_uk is saying is that you need to build your game around one grip.

    At an elite level it's a bit different (read: this doesn't apply to anyone of us). One of the real strengths that I think you see in the Japanese p,ayers is their ability to fight off weaker grips. This isn't to say they score ippon off weaker grips, but they are capable of going on the offensive from a weaker grip and avoiding getting passivity penalties - unless your planning to play to give your opponent passivity penalties then it doesn't really apply.
  7. adskibullus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2012 1:53pm


     Style: Lifting heavy stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE View Post
    Nothing wrong with being able to throw left and right off the same grip, what (I think) judoka_uk is saying is that you need to build your game around one grip.
    This brings me to another question in regards to grips and gripping strategies. Sometimes i find my opponents forcing me to fight left handed buy refusing to let me get a grip with my lapel hand, this screws up my game plan and leaves me totally unable to attack. Whats the best way to deal with this situation, learn to throw left handed or break their grip and try to re engage using my prefered right handed grip?


    Quote Originally Posted by ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE View Post
    At an elite level it's a bit different (read: this doesn't apply to anyone of us). One of the real strengths that I think you see in the Japanese p,ayers is their ability to fight off weaker grips. This isn't to say they score ippon off weaker grips, but they are capable of going on the offensive from a weaker grip and avoiding getting passivity penalties - unless your planning to play to give your opponent passivity penalties then it doesn't really apply.
    Makes sense.
  8. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2012 2:54pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    I hear loads of guys over on judo forum talking about being albe to throw from any grip or is that just japanese idealist crap?
    Not Japanese idealist, because I'm pretty certain you'd struggle to find an actual Japanese Judo coach telling you to do that. Weaboo idealist, certainly.

    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    This brings me to another question in regards to grips and gripping strategies. Sometimes i find my opponents forcing me to fight left handed buy refusing to let me get a grip with my lapel hand, this screws up my game plan and leaves me totally unable to attack. Whats the best way to deal with this situation, learn to throw left handed or break their grip and try to re engage using my prefered right handed grip?
    Forcing your opponent to fight left handed is a really common basic tactic. What they're trying to do is control your sleeve hand and then turn your weak side, the left, into them by keeping their elbow down.

    If someone is simply that much better at Judo than you then there's not an awful lot you can do about it. If they're better at grip fighting than you, you're going to get outgripped.

    What you need to concentrate on is sleeve control namely gaining control of theirs and keeping yours free. I've written a few bits on that here, that might help you:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101064

    If you're around the same gripping skill level and neither of you can consistently dominate the sleeve then if you do engage its usually in extreme right on right



    However, this in itself presents issues, because there's a limited number of throws that can be done from here and they're difficult to do, its really an advanced fighting situation which is why you rarely see beginners in it.

    This is a very good example of what occurs, its extreme left on left, but its exactly the same as extreme right on right in terms of body positioning, situations created and techniques employed.

  9. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2012 3:22pm


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by adskibullus View Post
    This brings me to another question in regards to grips and gripping strategies. Sometimes i find my opponents forcing me to fight left handed buy refusing to let me get a grip with my lapel hand, this screws up my game plan and leaves me totally unable to attack. Whats the best way to deal with this situation, learn to throw left handed or break their grip and try to re engage using my prefered right handed grip?
    There are some other things you can do from this grip other than just accept it. I'm not sure how much you've been doing Judo so far but it seems a bit much to me to go into grip fighting too much at the stage of Judo I assume your at. I was writing some suggestions for what you could do instead but without knowing the grades of your opponents and you it's a bit silly. I would actually recommend talking to your partners/coach about it and see what they say. It may be he thinks you need to start learning to grip fight or it may be that when your coach hears he wants you to cut that **** out and do proper Judo for now, unless he totally dismisses grip fighting or can't advise you, I'd listen to him.
  10. Lindz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2012 5:18pm

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     Style: comparison shopping

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    It is easier on people of equal or lesser skill if you come up against someone more skillfull you won't get that grip.
    If they're more skillful aren't you screwed pretty much no matter what you do?
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