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  1. Grisnak is offline

    Registered Member

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    Apr 2004
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2004 4:18pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Shootfighting"

    (Yes, Im new here)

    My friend told me about this sport called Shootfighting, it sounds pretty sucky but... Does anyone know anything about it? I'm thinking of changing sport to something with grappling and my friend said that grips and stuff was a part of shootfighting. Please excuse my lousy grammar, I blaim that Im tired and Ill....

    Thank you!
  2. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2004 10:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's complex, but I'll try.
    There used to be real pro wrestling.As in not fixed.Then came fake wrestling...sometimes on the same cards.In wrestling terms a real match was a "shoot" a fake match a "work".
    Decades ago prowrestling in the USA became completely fake (around 1930 its thought, though debated).
    But the moves were based on real moves, cause the old time real wrestlers taught it.
    When pro wrestling got to japan it was taught by Karl Gotch.A former olympic wrestler turned fake pro wrestler.
    One of Gotchs students in japan was Bart Vale.
    Remember, this was FAKE wrestling.
    In america Vale marketed himself as a real fighter cause fake fights in japan look very real.
    Vale called what he taught in america "shoot fighting" from the old wrestling word for real.
    Vale taught the submissions taught in Japan by Gotch and Russain Samboist Victor Koga, and Vale also taught stand-up from what he called thaiboxing(though vales actual standup training was in kempo).
    Shootfighting is a term COPYRIGHTED by Bart Vale.
    Now he even runs small shootfighting events in Florida.These events are real.Essentially MMA, but with limited ground striking and rope escapes.
    Vale still claims his matches in Japan were shoots.But they werent.They were works.
    Vale is 0-2 in real kickboxing and 1-2 in real MMA fighting.
    Shooto is a word for a type of real MMA in japan.As is shootboxing.Neither are related to Vales shootfighting.
    Last edited by Strong Machine; 4/11/2004 10:31pm at .
  3. Grisnak is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2004 4:31am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you recommend it?
  4. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2004 5:59am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn thanks Strong Machine. That summary kicked ass. Do you know the origins of Shooto? Okay I am a dumbass for taking it for over a year and not knowing where it comes from, but I just did it and never thought about until I read this thread . . .
  5. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2004 12:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After fake wrestling (as outlined above) became a rage in japan some of Gotchs pro wrestling students began putting real matches in there promotions.
    Pacrase was begun by Funaki and Suzuki in the early 90's with mostly real matches, Rings began around 90.....it was started by Maeda and was initially fake.New Japan Pro Wrestling was begun in the 80's and is still ALMOST all fake.
    Shooto matches began popping up in the late 80's.But unlike the others Shooto is not a trademarked name.
    Shooto was a generic term for real(hence shoot) type matches.
    There is an umbrella orginization that sactions shooto, but because shooto is a word used by a few different promoters it has no real owner or founder.It was started by a collection of second generation Gotch and Koga students and was only amatuer for a few years before a pro league was begun.
    In the late 80's through mid 90's though the rules varied, generally shooto events allowed no ground striking.
    But after Japan Vale Tudo 94 and 95 it was shown that ground strikes could be allowed without the fighters being maimed so pro shooto came to be.It was distinquished from amatuer but not only ground strikes but more lberal rules in a couple other small ways.
    Shooto in the mid 90's was the best.If you can get tapes, then do so.Because they allowed little time on the ground so when the matches went down there was a flurry or lock attempts.Plus the unique scoring had the referree yelling CATCH when a hold was close, or a standing strike caused an opponant to go defensive.
    This meant the fighters knew who had more points.So one fighter would know he was down and he would go ballistic to get back in it.
    Unfortunatly(in my veiw) like pancrase, shooto began using UFC like rules in the late 90's.
    Now when you hold a shooto event in japan it gets ranked.If you are an amatuer D CLASS shootist you fight with certain rules.And when you accumulate enough points you graduate to C class and so on.
    The rules in the amatuer classes (D and C I believe) limited ground strikes much more than A and B.
    Of course, my word isnt gospel.I'm sure I've made errors in the above.But lots of sources on these args are incorrect.Largely because there is debate as to when these args became real rather than fake.
    But shooto MEANS real.So shooto has always been real.Until Bart Vale confused everyone in the USA about it.
    And to you asking "DO YOU RECOMEND SHOTFIGHTING?" Yes, I do.
    Although MOST SHOOTFIGHTING schools are just MMA schools using a name that they don't realise is owned by Bart Vale.
  6. Grisnak is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2004 4:45am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks!
  7. kod is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2004 1:13am


     Style: aikido / judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Little pet peeve here, but

    copyright -> protects works of authorship
    trademark -> identifies source of goods

    You cant copyright a word. And bart caccavale no longer has a trademark on shootfighting.
  8. stoogejitsu is offline
    stoogejitsu's Avatar

    BreakDance Fighter

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2004 5:09am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow Strong Machine, you know everything, so many things to ask, let's see:1st) Why do Bad things happen to good people?
    2nd) Why am I so fat?
    3rd)Where do we go when we die?
    4th)What's the meaning of life
    5th) How do I get girls to like me.
    6th) If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to here it, does it make a sound?
    7th) How many roads must a man walk down to call himself a man?

    Any information you can give me will be greatly appreciated oh wise one.
    Last edited by stoogejitsu; 4/16/2004 5:12am at .
  9. Meex is offline
    Meex's Avatar

    Loving Father

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2004 6:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    StrongMeds:
    Thanks for the history lesson. There's a shootfighting school here thAt I went to check out a few times, but their training is 85% to 90% conditioning, and I couldn't figure out what they trained for. In a two hour session, conditioning & stretching took up 1.5 hours. Then, they had a little technique instruction. Then, sparring. Their head instructor supposedly fought shooto in Japan. Now I know more about what that is.

    `~\
  10. The_Ghost is offline
    The_Ghost's Avatar

    U.S. Army

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2004 1:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kickboxing/Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I join shootfighting August I think.
    "did Phrost just call me a 'bitch'?"-Omega

    "The collective IQ of bullshido was reduced with the departure of Wastrel. It further dropped due to the retention of (Serious Harm)."
    - The all knowing Dochter

    "but like, it's possible to develop such a level of reflex that you can literally detect someones movements through sensitivity, and block without even thinking"-Apostol

    That's the amazing thing about Ninjas, for sneeky cocksuckers, they are all over the place, like dog **** on your shoe.-Ronin69
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