Armored combat on martial arts fight card?

**Permalost** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 2:45pm

Originally Posted by SteveM

What is ironic about this is that traditional karate moves designed for armored samurai combat which have been generally derided by MMA, like the "lunge punch", will become relevant in the ring again.

Lunge punching a guy in armor seems like a worse idea than lunge punching someone without armor.

**SteveM** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 4:54pm

Originally Posted by Permalost

Lunge punching a guy in armor seems like a worse idea than lunge punching someone without armor.

My understanding is that those techniques were designed for striking a guy straight in the chest and knocking him down. It sure sounded like a reasonable explanation for some really strange and slow punches. I'm sure there's a JMA guy on here who could elaborate.

Here's a video:

**Permalost** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 5:19pm

Originally Posted by SteveM

My understanding is that those techniques were designed for striking a guy straight in the chest and knocking him down. It sure sounded like a reasonable explanation for some really strange and slow punches. I'm sure there's a JMA guy on here who could elaborate.

Here's a video:

Seems weird for two armored men with swords and knives at their waist to be fistfighting each other, and punching an armored man in the chest with a closed fist seems like a poor way to go about knocking them down.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 5:24pm

Your understanding is oft repeated yet never true. It's a horrible way to hit someone, doubly horrible way to hit someone in armour

**SteveM** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 5:48pm

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

Your understanding is oft repeated yet never true. It's a horrible way to hit someone, doubly horrible way to hit someone in armour

LOL, so what's the rationale as far as why they punch like that?

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 6:13pm

Not my job to figure that out, but I'm here to tell you - plate doesn't slow you down as much as people think. You can do a cartwheel in fitted plate.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 6:49pm

Originally Posted by SteveM

LOL, so what's the rationale as far as why they punch like that?

Not really sure, but perhaps dramaticized and dogmatized from an unarmed version of maai exercises that seek to develop the spatial understanding of your and your opponent's range. A simple sword version could be to test exactly how far one has to be to reach a target with a single step, double step, lunge etc, and thus deduce a thing or two about managing the distance between two fighters. And/or to develop direct counterattacks to an opponent with an overcommitted attack, since with a weapon one will either be presented with the opportunities of being on the outside or inside, relatively speaking. I could see a lunge punch kind of motion developed in that sort of context.

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 5/04/2012 11:05pm

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

Not my job to figure that out, but I'm here to tell you - plate doesn't slow you down as much as people think. You can do a cartwheel in fitted plate.

demo of lunge punching plate would be cool.

Well it would be funny.

In any event it would be a good one to archive for just this sort of discussion.

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 5/05/2012 2:10am

Originally Posted by Permalost

Seems weird for two armored men with swords and knives at their waist to be fistfighting each other, and punching an armored man in the chest with a closed fist seems like a poor way to go about knocking them down.

I figure that in the simulated scenario above, the two fighters have just broken or lost their weapons and in the time it takes to reach for the secondary weapon the other person would have punched you in the face or taken you down, therefore, you must be ready to counter that.

If your hand is as armored as the chest you are punching, it seems no more poor a way to knock someone down than if you were both unarmed.

After having spent the past five days fighting at the Battle of the Nations, I can tell you that punching with an armored fist, or a shield, can knock a man in armor down if he is not ready for it.

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 5/05/2012 2:21am

Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

Not my job to figure that out, but I'm here to tell you - plate doesn't slow you down as much as people think. You can do a cartwheel in fitted plate.

...if you are strong and fit enough to do so. I have been running around in about 40-50 lbs of armor in the SCA,but had to add about 30 lbs to that for the Battle of the Nations. Despite my training, I found it did slow me down. Not so much initially, but fatigue wore on me after running for a bit. You will be able to see this in videos when I am running back to the sidelines after losing my weapon in several battles.

The Russians run around like jackrabbits, but their armor is lighter. they have been ding this for years more that the US, (this was our first year at BotN) and have figured out some shortcuts (and may or may not be skirting some of the rules, but I don;t know for sure) and train like professionals, because they are paid to do this (most of us Americans have to go to "day jobs" to afford this, but we are working on changing that).

Another thing to consider about moving in armor is the location of the weight. Yes, it is more or less evenly distributed about the body, but if you are punched in the chest and your center of gravity moves away from your base (your head and chest move backwards and your feet stay in the same place) you go down. With the extra weight on you upper body, arms, and head from the armor, you have a higher center of gravity, thus giving our opponent more opportunity to tip you over if you do not have an effective counter.