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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2012 10:57am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    I think we should try to stick to the semantic argument traps without getting into issues which are merely ignorant stupidity which might require other tactics.
    The meat and potatoes of a lot of this ignorance is often some semantic game, glitch or short circuit. In Zendo's example the person is using MT+BJJ as his definition for a term that is not defined like that. The term the TapouT dude is looking for is something like "Ruas Vale Tudo"

    The same guy might also say something like "Bas Rutten is a legend of MMA" in the same conversation, even though Bas' style is MT+CaCC, and the overwhelming majority of his fights did not allow any MT techniques beyond the style's kicks.

    Using multiple (even incompatible) definitions for the same term in a conversation is great way to kick up a lot of unnecessary dust.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 1/12/2012 11:10am at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2012 1:52pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    -Edit to above: It is also a very common tactic to use a fairly neutral definition for "MMA" like "striking + grappling" and then turn around and insist that someone else's Hung gar+Dumog background disqualified them from claiming to train "MMA".
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2012 4:04pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    Using multiple (even incompatible) definitions for the same term in a conversation is great way to kick up a lot of unnecessary dust.
    I suppose, if you weren't trying to continue a semantic argument on the semantics of semantic arguments, I might agree with you more strongly.

    Some semantics are worth arguing, but the TapouT weenies are a bad example. We don't need to sort the trivial from the absurd when simply identifying where are the important distinctions will be hard enough.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
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  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2012 4:10pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Back on subject...

    Example: You need to study all ranges of unarmed combat.

    No, you don't. Whether you need to study all ranges is determined by what are your personal predilections and focus of training.

    Example: Boxing is a complete style.

    Yes, it is, if your predilections and focus allow you to view "complete" in a different light.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2012 4:11pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Back on subject...

    Example: You need to study all ranges of unarmed combat.

    No, you don't. Whether you need to study all ranges is determined by what are your personal predilections and focus of training.

    Example: Boxing is a complete style.

    Yes, it is, if your predilections and focus allow you to view "complete" in a different light.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2012 2:20pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I get that the second example turns on one's definition of "complete" (or "complete martial art"), but I don't see the Semantic angle on the first one. It seems more like an OMGEVRYONEKNOWZ...

    As far as TapoutT semantics goes, I would say that there is a very real and very semantic error in the ever popular "UFC=MMA" at the core of their world view.

    as far as me arguing meta-semantics :) all I want to say about it is that I'd define the scope of the thread to be any arguments that turn on the definitions of the terms used.

    Somethings just look that way, for example arguments that turn of similarities of pronounciation...

    Boston has the best Mix Martial Artists because it has so manyMicks.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/13/2012 11:45pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Phillips View Post
    ... but I don't see the Semantic angle on the first one.
    It is dependant on your definition of a Martial Art's purpose. If you flip the first example over and make it related to the second, the semantic angle might become clearer: "Boxing is terrible because it has only punching."
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. jzx is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2012 3:42am

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Example: You need to study all ranges of unarmed combat.

    No, you don't. Whether you need to study all ranges is determined by what are your personal predilections and focus of training.

    Example: Boxing is a complete style.

    Yes, it is, if your predilections and focus allow you to view "complete" in a different light.
    I might be beating a dead horse, but it seems to me that a style is complete when some turn of events doesn't lead directly to defeat (whatever the terms of defeat might be). As an example in MMA sport, if your opponent catches you with a double leg do you sprawl and back out, do you go to ground and try for a sub, etc., or do you just hope that it never comes to that and get eaten alive. There are plenty of MMA fighters who do great with just one style, they just have effective contingencies. I think that's the most honest way we can read the word "complete."
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2012 11:34am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzx View Post
    I might be beating a dead horse, but it seems to me that a style is complete when some turn of events doesn't lead directly to defeat (whatever the terms of defeat might be). As an example in MMA sport, if your opponent catches you with a double leg do you sprawl and back out, do you go to ground and try for a sub, etc., or do you just hope that it never comes to that and get eaten alive. There are plenty of MMA fighters who do great with just one style, they just have effective contingencies. I think that's the most honest way we can read the word "complete."
    Hey Matt, is it a little clearer now? Jzx fell directly into the "five foci" semantic trap.

    Jzx,

    Your response is entirely dependant on your belief that the study of martial arts (Malogy? Maology? Heh.) must contain aspects of a specific focus I mentioned previously. I don't think the intent of this thread is to define the word 'complete' as it pertains to martial arts. I'm going to treat your response as an unintentional red herring and not bother to respond directly to what you wrote. Still, I'll try to be a little less obtuse by addressing what I see as the crux.

    Not everyone studying a martial art is concerned with victory or defeat. Some have a different focus, and, therefore, a different definition for 'complete' than upon what your response is contingent. For example, look up the root word of 'competition': "Come together to seek god" - a focus most peculiar to to many. Zen and The Art of Archery is a decent book which further touches upon this focus in relation to a martial art.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/15/2012 11:40am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. jzx is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2012 5:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Hey Matt, is it a little clearer now? Jzx fell directly into the "five foci" semantic trap.

    Jzx,

    Your response is entirely dependant on your belief that the study of martial arts (Malogy? Maology? Heh.) must contain aspects of a specific focus I mentioned previously. I don't think the intent of this thread is to define the word 'complete' as it pertains to martial arts. I'm going to treat your response as an unintentional red herring and not bother to respond directly to what you wrote. Still, I'll try to be a little less obtuse by addressing what I see as the crux.

    Not everyone studying a martial art is concerned with victory or defeat.
    Ah, I see what you mean, thank you.

    Sorry if that was off topic, heheh.
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