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  1. VeritasVS is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 10:44am

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     Style: Aikido and Iaijutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    My opinion on this is formed by actually being in fights that have involved blunt weapons such as chairs, pool cues, bats, boards, and even once a crutch. And one thing held true for each it took a great amount of force to cause any real damage. The same way a fast jab avoids telegraphing and doesn't commit the user to the move it also doesn't usually end the fight. The thing is with a sword that is all you really need is a fast jab, the blade does the work of ending the fight. Tell me when you spar using iado do you use slow committed power strikes, or fast jabs?? Now that dynamic changes when you use a blunt weapon, more force is required to do damage than with a blade, therefore a style based on using a blade would have difficulty translating to a force based weapon. The only credited schools I have learned at was weapons programs that were part of a couple of dojos I used to attend a few years back, but those were mostly Asian sword styles. There really are not any official schools were I'm at that teach western style sword, I had to pick those up where I could at medieval club meets or from friends who had trained in those styles. I make no claims to being good at them however. But even then I have eyes and can see that at least with the styles in sword I have learned that speed and timing were the biggest key to those styles and so was using the blade to cut, which is something you can not do with a blunt weapon.
    When I spar, the object is to not use force because I do not wish to hurt my partner. Anyway, I use both slashes and thrusts when I spar. However, as previously stated, it was a non-committed jab using practically no force that busted my sparring partner's lip and if I hadn't stopped my motion in time, may have busted their teeth as well. A mistake I'm not proud of.
  2. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 10:47am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I do agree with some of what you are saying, my point was that using a sword specific style, something that was designed for a bladed weapon, but instead using it for a blunt weapon was not the best way to go. I wasn't implying that a blunt weapon wasn't usefull. Now as far as using forcefull strikes yes they can cause some real damage, but I still feel that thrusting is too risky with a blunt weapon. It requires a good amount of force to be a fight ender and opens the door for a counter. Now as far as your arguement on vital point striking, I just don't understand how you can see that as being any different that what the ninjers say. You talk about how a good trained stickfighter can hit those areas, but it's actually easier to aim and use bare hands so by that account ninjutsu should work as advertised too right?? Im really not trying to troll are start a shitfest I'm just seeing alot of parallels, but I will keep an open mind about if you can explain this to me.
    I believe that you aren't trying to troll or trying to start a shitfest.

    Trying to explain will be difficult because I can see the results, but don't know why it has that effect especially compared to fists.

    Is it that the stick is a harder unpatted weapon where the end will gain a higher velocity compared to fists?
    Is it because the impactzone of the cane is smaller that hitting the side of your head from the bottom of your nose to just above your eyebrow is enough to cause trauma?
    Is it a weak point in a humans skull?
    Is it that you fight both with one stick, so that in the case you have neutralised the stick of your opponent (by faster counterattack after a parries), your opponent is standing open, while in Boxing this is not the case (two arms)?

    I really don't know!

    Edit:
    I was more talking about slashing than thrusting.
    The thrust is only used when there's no place for a swinging motion, like in a hallway or corridor.
    Which would still be better than throwing your cane away for some old fashioned fisticuffs.
    Last edited by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs; 1/17/2012 10:52am at .
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  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 12:05pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Yes but you have to admit it's a little different situation when your talking about cops in full riot gear, instead of an individual defend themselves with a cane. I personally have had a few nice wooden objects cracked over my head in fights yet none of them cracked my skull. Now I'm not saying that it can't or doesn't happen, I'm just saying using a fast strike that has no power behind it is low percentage when armed with a blunt weapon. Now as far as hitting someone in the brachial complex, isn't that the type of responce that gets the ninjers made fun of around here??
    I understand that the only knowledge of riot gear or situations is probably stuff you saw on TV. But the only gear we wear is a helmet, gloves, and knee pads. So take the protective gear out of the argument. I wear more gear than that when I do stick sparring.

    But having things craked over your head, does give you some idea. However, were those people trained in using the sword and then adapting those techniques to your situation? If not, then it isn't relvant.

    As far as the brachial complex is concerned...I'm assuming that you haven't done your research. Or even googled it. But I think that if you do, you will realise that it is not only very easy to aim for this point during a strike, it is also a good strategy for sticks, swords, and boxing strikes.

    Your strawman argument about "ninjers" can end here as we will discuss the relevant points of this thread.
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  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 12:08pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I still feel that thrusting is too risky with a blunt weapon. It requires a good amount of force to be a fight ender and opens the door for a counter.
    -a forceful swing opens the door for a counter more than a well-executed thrust. Have you addressed this yet?

    -only fools throw their tools out of their toolbox because they're not fight enders. Do you only train in fight-ending techniques?

    -The thrust can set up your powerful swings. Powerful swings that would only hit air, had you not used the thrust as a setup.

    -What's the most important punch? hint: it's not the cross
  5. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 12:38pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    -a forceful swing opens the door for a counter more than a well-executed thrust. Have you addressed this yet?

    -only fools throw their tools out of their toolbox because they're not fight enders. Do you only train in fight-ending techniques?

    -The thrust can set up your powerful swings. Powerful swings that would only hit air, had you not used the thrust as a setup.

    -What's the most important punch? hint: it's not the cross
    I at no point said I would throw every tool out of the tool box, and yes I am well aware of the use of a jab to set up stronger strikes. I do however throw tools out that I deem more of a risk than what their outcome is worth.
  6. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 12:46pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I understand that the only knowledge of riot gear or situations is probably stuff you saw on TV. But the only gear we wear is a helmet, gloves, and knee pads. So take the protective gear out of the argument. I wear more gear than that when I do stick sparring.

    But having things craked over your head, does give you some idea. However, were those people trained in using the sword and then adapting those techniques to your situation? If not, then it isn't relvant.

    As far as the brachial complex is concerned...I'm assuming that you haven't done your research. Or even googled it. But I think that if you do, you will realise that it is not only very easy to aim for this point during a strike, it is also a good strategy for sticks, swords, and boxing strikes.

    Your strawman argument about "ninjers" can end here as we will discuss the relevant points of this thread.
    I would be more impressed with the stickfighting ability of the riot police if it didn't take them five cops to take down one hippie. On top of that they usually use pepper spray or tear gas canisters. By the way this is why they end up on TV. You can avoid the ninja argument parallel all you want but if you are advocating using small target eye and throat hits then you are in fact arguing like a ninja. I never said that those tactics couldn't work I said they were low percentage. Oh and a good number of riot police I have seen use shields, the smart ones do anyway. I would imagine those people that do resist are likely dealt with by 3 or more cops which to my understanding is procedure.
  7. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 1:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I would be more impressed with the stickfighting ability of the riot police if it didn't take them five cops to take down one hippie. On top of that they usually use pepper spray or tear gas canisters. By the way this is why they end up on TV.
    First of all, I realize you are talking out of your ass here. This has nothing to do with this discussion at all. You hating cops has nothing to do with your lack of understanding of this topic. Special munitions (tear gas and pepper spray) has nothing to do with this thread. Are you bringing this up, just because you are floundering now?

    You can avoid the ninja argument parallel all you want but if you are advocating using small target eye and throat hits then you are in fact arguing like a ninja.
    Please site any of my quotes above that say anything about eye or throat hits. I said the brachial complex. It is actually a pretty large area. Your lack of knowledge of the area call into crediblity anything you say from here on out, as far as I'm concerned. Even an "MMA" fighter like yourself should know this as there have been multiple "MMA" fights eneded with strikes to this area.


    Oh and a good number of riot police I have seen use shields, the smart ones do anyway.
    And here you have no idea what you are talking about. The only knowledge you have of the subject is from what you see on TV. You are way over your head in this topic. There are multiple areas where shields can be utilized. There are multiple types of shields. Likewise, there are many areas where shields can not be utilized. It has nothing do with with who is "smart" or not. It has to do with Law and Regulations for the use of force and the response to resistance.

    I would imagine those people that do resist are likely dealt with by 3 or more cops which to my understanding is procedure
    And you would be wrong on this as well. There is spontaneous use of force. And there is use of force where you can plan what you are going to do. There are far more spontaneous uses of force then not. The vast majority of those are responded to by one cop, not multiple ones.

    But I see you are unable to abandon your strawman and have decided to fully embrace it rather than actually discussing the issues of this thread. Thanks for shitting up the place.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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  8. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 1:10pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I would be more impressed with the stickfighting ability of the riot police if it didn't take them five cops to take down one hippie.
    Okay, who's stickfighting abilities impress you then?
    On top of that they usually use pepper spray or tear gas canisters. By the way this is why they end up on TV.
    How about we leave the riot police technical discussion to the actual riot cop? Unless you've got a similar background? (oh wait, you didn't want to talk about your police work)
    You can avoid the ninja argument parallel all you want but if you are advocating using small target eye and throat hits then you are in fact arguing like a ninja.
    Not the same guy, not the same targets mentioned.

    I never said that those tactics couldn't work I said they were low percentage. Oh and a good number of riot police I have seen use shields, the smart ones do anyway. I would imagine those people that do resist are likely dealt with by 3 or more cops which to my understanding is procedure.
    The fact that a proper baton thrust can and indeed has broken many ribs and skulls is separate from the number of people involved. The injuries are still caused by the individual armed with a blunt weapon. Note: skulls and ribs (the targets mentioned by Diesel) are not exactly tiny cuticle sized pressure points.

    Let's also not forget that on the list of reasons why ninjutsu sucks, targeting small areas isn't the main one. In a system without pressure testing, of course the practitioner will have trouble hitting small areas, especially if they're trying to do so with stupid lunging punches and outward blocks with the thumb knuckle. In boxing, kickboxing and MMA we see lots of effective strikes directed to relatively small (as small as the ones we're actually talking about) areas (the jaw, the temple, the liver, the solar plexis, the nerves of the legs). It's a function of how they train- they spar, with intensity, and try to hit these targets on a resisting person. Ninjutsu guys seem to mostly attack these areas slowly, against a slow, choreographed attack that freezes upon completion.
    Last edited by Permalost; 1/17/2012 1:19pm at .
  9. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 1:10pm

    staff
     

    --
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    This thread is heading for a bag full of cull in the not too distant future if the discussion at hand doesn't remain ON TOPIC and not drift into entirely irrelevant direction(s)
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2012 2:07pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Then in the interest of getting back on track, I think its worth differentiating between the kinds of thrusts a person can do with a cane. One is two-handed with a wide grip, like a baton, like we see this cop preparing for:

    In a sword discussion, this is a common grip tactic used in halfsword techniques, for fighting in armor.

    It could also be a long-range single handed thrust more like a fencer:


    It could also be a two handed thrust with the hands close to one end, the way one would thrust with a two handed sword.

    I think the one handed one is too high risk for the rewards. If parried or knocked offline, it can't be recovered as quickly as with two hands. It will have less power and if your grip is compromised you'll probably drop it since there's no other hand to ensure a good grip. I would say the only time this would be advisable is if you can't use both hands, or you have a second weapon in your other hand (a knife, for example).

    The long 2 handed grip can deliver a very solid thrust. It can also be used to hit with the portion between the hands in a thrusting/shoving motion, and can be used in some simple blocking motions (that can also be used to hit). If you absolutely had to block something solid coming in, this would be the grip to use

    Of course, those with sword or stick training would also note that blocking that way isn't really ideal, as it doesn't set up counters as well as other defenses would (assuming this is a straight thrusting style block and not an oblique continuous motion). The other advantage is that a weapon can be held in this way without assuming a "guard" without looking confrontational.

    The 2 handed sword grip offers a stronger, more secure thrust than the one handed version, but at a slightly shorter range. It offers a somewhat weaker (imo) thrust than the wide 2 handed/port arms grip, but at an increased range. So, fairly middle of the road. Unlike the wide/port arms grip, it appears more confrontational. It can be swung with maximum power in kinetic strikes, which is great if you have a cane that won't break.

    There's also a reverse/baliktad grip you could use with a cane, but I think its mostly a novelty thing and I wouldn't use it.

    So that's my take on cane grips. Given those attributes, this is my opinion:
    Until the violence really starts, the wide 2 handed grip is the way to go. It can be deployed to block something out of nowhere and can be used to create a little space. It doesn't appear as confrontational as a sword grip and its a good starting position if someone tries to wrestle your weapon away.

    Once it's on and the blows are flying, the 2 handed grip allows for powerful swings and thrusts at a longer range and other swordy stuff, so that's the option I like.

    On the off chance that you've got a secondary weapon or something to use as a shield, maybe then the one handed grip is an idea.
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