Applying Sword Form to Cane

[VeritasVS]

I think the cane as a defensive weapon is usually better deployed more like a bayonet than a sword. Kinda like what these guys are doing:


It sounds like you're also sticking another point about using a sword for home defense as well. While I'm sure it could work, such a person should consider if their sword can be used effectively inside, in a hallway for example. Those lovers-of-the-sword the samurai would not use their katana as their indoor weapon.

Why is that?

It is true that full-length swords are not well-suited for hallways or low ceilings. That is where a good theory could go wrong in practice. However, that was one of the main uses for the wakizashi, though I do not currently own one. And as for why I feel a spiritual connection with the sword, I am not sure. But when I hold a blade I feel connected to the past ages. Call me anachronistic or just a plain old loon, but I feel like it just belongs.

As for the damage that can be done with a bokuto/bokken (Which is basically a stick!), I was sparring with a close friend and just by pushing the tip of the bokken forward, sliding off of the blade of their bokken. I accidentally busted their lip. Keep in mind I used almost no force when doing this. The damage could have been devastating if I had used any force at all (Which I'm glad I didn't!)

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

A nice introduction by the Cambridge University Team into La Canne de Combat.
You can see that it's really stick fencing based on the techniques of Rapier and Small Sword with some minor tweaks.
Mostly in the angles of holding the cane in a defensive position, because a stick doesn't have a hilt to protect the hand.

One of the reasons that La Canne still has such a connection to sword fighting is/was that
a) fencing was a part of a gentlemen's education at the time of creating La Canne
b) a lot of walking canes in the beginning were in fact sword canes.

You can see in the basic drills that only the first few inches of the cane are the impactzone in a swing motion, which gives it a lot of damaging capability through speed and kinetic energy.
Also the target are the eyes and the knees, two areas you really don't want to hit at with a cane.
Unfortunally the motion to perform the swing makes it useless in a narrow passage, like inside a hallway, there I would suggest a thrusting motion in the style of sport fencers (foil) to the face.

I will say that my experience in La Canne (and Krabi Krabong) is limited. It's used as warming up and/or cool down at my Savate and Muay Thai training and I'm now just at the phase were I'm switching from Canne de Sport to Canne de Combat.

[Bneterasedmynam]

A nice introduction by the Cambridge University Team into La Canne de Combat.
You can see that it's really stick fencing based on the techniques of Rapier and Small Sword with some minor tweaks.
Mostly in the angles of holding the cane in a defensive position, because a stick doesn't have a hilt to protect the hand.

One of the reasons that La Canne still has such a connection to sword fighting is/was that
a) fencing was a part of a gentlemen's education at the time of creating La Canne
b) a lot of walking canes in the beginning were in fact sword canes.

You can see in the basic drills that only the first few inches of the cane are the impactzone in a swing motion, which gives it a lot of damaging capability through speed and kinetic energy.
Also the target are the eyes and the knees, two areas you really don't want to hit at with a cane.
Unfortunally the motion to perform the swing makes it useless in a narrow passage, like inside a hallway, there I would suggest a thrusting motion in the style of sport fencers (foil) to the face.

I will say that my experience in La Canne (and Krabi Krabong) is limited. It's used as warming up and/or cool down at my Savate and Muay Thai training and I'm now just at the phase were I'm switching from Canne de Sport to Canne de Combat.

If the targets are the eyes and knees, yet the consensus on this site at least with hand to hand is that targeting specific "magic targets" is low percentage, then how would that be more likely with a cane?? And how exactly would a style based on the rapier use strong enough hits to actually stop a fight?? I could see it working fro a sword cane, but who carries those??

[Diesel_tke]

I would question any real use of a thrust when using a blunt weapon. .

Not only do I have extensive training using this technique against a resisting opponent, I have real world experience. I have used this technique to great effect in a situation where we were required to quell a disturbance. Me being a member of the baton Rapid Responce Team.

This technique is highly effective at moving a person back away from you, and it is a great technique for breaking ribs and skulls. So have no fear an don't bother questioning this technique any longer. Learn it, drill it, use it.

We also used the technique that is normally a number one strike in most FMA systems. It is also used in sword systems in basically the same movement. It does not take any more force to incapacitate someone with this strike than it does with a sword. You take a stick, and hit someone in the head or brachial complex, and they will go down easily with not much force. It works well to the common peroneal as well. I have used this technique to put down people.

In addition to my baton squad training, I also train in single stick.

[Bneterasedmynam]

Qualify how your opinion is formed.

How much experience do you have training in a legitimate sword school which offers not only a comprehensive technical syllabus but, is based upon strategy.

My opinion on this is formed by actually being in fights that have involved blunt weapons such as chairs, pool cues, bats, boards, and even once a crutch. And one thing held true for each it took a great amount of force to cause any real damage. The same way a fast jab avoids telegraphing and doesn't commit the user to the move it also doesn't usually end the fight. The thing is with a sword that is all you really need is a fast jab, the blade does the work of ending the fight. Tell me when you spar using iado do you use slow committed power strikes, or fast jabs?? Now that dynamic changes when you use a blunt weapon, more force is required to do damage than with a blade, therefore a style based on using a blade would have difficulty translating to a force based weapon. The only credited schools I have learned at was weapons programs that were part of a couple of dojos I used to attend a few years back, but those were mostly Asian sword styles. There really are not any official schools were I'm at that teach western style sword, I had to pick those up where I could at medieval club meets or from friends who had trained in those styles. I make no claims to being good at them however. But even then I have eyes and can see that at least with the styles in sword I have learned that speed and timing were the biggest key to those styles and so was using the blade to cut, which is something you can not do with a blunt weapon.

[Bneterasedmynam]

Not only do I have extensive training using this technique against a resisting opponent, I have real world experience. I have used this technique to great effect in a situation where we were required to quell a disturbance. Me being a member of the baton Rapid Responce Team.

This technique is highly effective at moving a person back away from you, and it is a great technique for breaking ribs and skulls. So have no fear an don't bother questioning this technique any longer. Learn it, drill it, use it.

We also used the technique that is normally a number one strike in most FMA systems. It is also used in sword systems in basically the same movement. It does not take any more force to incapacitate someone with this strike than it does with a sword. You take a stick, and hit someone in the head or brachial complex, and they will go down easily with not much force. It works well to the common peroneal as well. I have used this technique to put down people.

In addition to my baton squad training, I also train in single stick.

Yes but you have to admit it's a little different situation when your talking about cops in full riot gear, instead of an individual defend themselves with a cane. I personally have had a few nice wooden objects cracked over my head in fights yet none of them cracked my skull. Now I'm not saying that it can't or doesn't happen, I'm just saying using a fast strike that has no power behind it is low percentage when armed with a blunt weapon. Now as far as hitting someone in the brachial complex, isn't that the type of responce that gets the ninjers made fun of around here??

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

If the targets are the eyes and knees, yet the consensus on this site at least with hand to hand is that targeting specific "magic targets" is low percentage, then how would that be more likely with a cane?? And how exactly would a style based on the rapier use strong enough hits to actually stop a fight?? I could see it working fro a sword cane, but who carries those??

Burn your straw man!
The eyes and knees are targets, but not the only ones, the whole body is, but if you have had a certain amount of training, you can target the weaker parts of the body easy.

Watch the video again, the stick is swung every time to the side of the face at eyes hight.
In the clip it is done with La Canne de Sport, which is a lighter version than La Canne de Combat. That one is made of hard wood like a bokken and is about as thick.

If you don't think that swinging such a weapon at full speed and hitting your opponent in that zone of his face with just the 2 inches of the tip will not cause head and eye trauma, I would suggest an mechanics/kinetics/physics course.
The mass of that weapon, the speed and the minimal impactzone will make it forfill it's trajectory with only a minimum deflection (which will be compansated by the wielders grip) sending the opponent to the ground.

I've been hit with the lighter sport cane while wearing a fencing mask, I've felt it, my head snapped back and I had to do some steps to the side to compensate or I would have kissed the ground.

Hit the knee in the same way and speed and you will be limping, which means that your mobility is compromissed and you become an easy target to be taken care off.
(Remember the times you bumped into a salontable at home?).


If you (power) thrust into someones face, the form of your face will ricochet the tip of the cane leaving enough trauma (open cut) to deteriate an opponent of attacking a second time OR it will guide the tip towards the eyes or mouth causing permanent damage.
The reason why in most sporting events using sticks, thrusting towards the face (even with protection) is prohibited.

[BryanW]

You can see that it's really stick fencing based on the techniques of Rapier and Small Sword with some minor tweaks.
Mostly in the angles of holding the cane in a defensive position, because a stick doesn't have a hilt to protect the hand.

I respectfully disagree with this assessment. If you're thinking angles and parries then I suppose all weapon forms may be related in a sense in that you block someone's attack so they can't hit you and ideally you can hit them. However rapier and certainly smallsword do not typically attack like in legal canne de combat strikes using the elliptical hand motion and large arm movements.

Now singlestick from backsword I could see far more application.

[Bneterasedmynam]

Burn your straw man!
The eyes and knees are targets, but not the only ones, the whole body is, but if you have had a certain amount of training, you can target the weaker parts of the body easy.

Watch the video again, the stick is swung every time to the side of the face at eyes hight.
In the clip it is done with La Canne de Sport, which is a lighter version than La Canne de Combat. That one is made of hard wood like a bokken and is about as thick.

If you don't think that swinging such a weapon at full speed and hitting your opponent in that zone of his face with just the 2 inches of the tip will not cause head and eye trauma, I would suggest an mechanics/kinetics/physics course.
The mass of that weapon, the speed and the minimal impactzone will make it forfill it's trajectory with only a minimum deflection (which will be compansated by the wielders grip) sending the opponent to the ground.

I've been hit with the lighter sport cane while wearing a fencing mask, I've felt it, my head snapped back and I had to do some steps to the side to compensate or I would have kissed the ground.

Hit the knee in the same way and speed and you will be limping, which means that your mobility is compromissed and you become an easy target to be taken care off.
(Remember the times you bumped into a salontable at home?).


If you (power) thrust into someones face, the form of your face will ricochet the tip of the cane leaving enough trauma (open cut) to deteriate an opponent of attacking a second time OR it will guide the tip towards the eyes or mouth causing permanent damage.
The reason why in most sporting events using sticks, thrusting towards the face (even with protection) is prohibited.

I do agree with some of what you are saying, my point was that using a sword specific style, something that was designed for a bladed weapon, but instead using it for a blunt weapon was not the best way to go. I wasn't implying that a blunt weapon wasn't usefull. Now as far as using forcefull strikes yes they can cause some real damage, but I still feel that thrusting is too risky with a blunt weapon. It requires a good amount of force to be a fight ender and opens the door for a counter. Now as far as your arguement on vital point striking, I just don't understand how you can see that as being any different that what the ninjers say. You talk about how a good trained stickfighter can hit those areas, but it's actually easier to aim and use bare hands so by that account ninjutsu should work as advertised too right?? Im really not trying to troll are start a shitfest I'm just seeing alot of parallels, but I will keep an open mind about if you can explain this to me.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

I respectfully disagree with this assessment. If you're thinking angles and parries then I suppose all weapon forms may be related in a sense in that you block someone's attack so they can't hit you and ideally you can hit them. However rapier and certainly smallsword do not typically attack like in legal canne de combat strikes using the elliptical hand motion and large arm movements.

Now singlestick from backsword I could see far more application.

I'm going to have to check with my teacher (I'll see him next Saturday) how the rapier and smallsword fit into it, because indeed the techniques that I have learned uptill now look more like backsword/singlestick. (didn't even knew that backswords existed until now).