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  1. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 5:02pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_cage View Post
    See- once again- i disagree entirely with your assertion here;
    You were 11 and were absolutely unprepared(and all it did was knock you down- im assuming you arent dead) and it contacted straight with your head . .. what do you think would occur if you blocked at all? or if you were an adult/prepared and guarding?

    I agree with diesel- if they appear trained in anything- blade all the way (bat becomes limited as range decreases) but against a firearm the distance is useful.

    Im just thinking in the sense that- if i was attacking someone and they swing a full-tilt-bat at me .. . would that end it? or just hurt . . . and from the examples i have seen there is no guarantee it is a one-stopper EVEN if you connect.
    What I've written in the previous posts doesn't contradict what you're saying. I'm not sure what assertion I made that you disagree with. Was it:
    that a hurl has less effect than a bat? or
    that I would rather hold a stick than a knife? or
    that with a knife the possibility of serious injury is high?

    I'd prefer the stick because I don't think I'd be willing to use the knife effectively.

    Assuming that we're still talking about the home invasion scenario:
    I'm at the opposite end of the apartment to the kitchen and don't keep a knife in my room.
    I can't imagine having time to judge the level of fighting competence of the invader.
    I'm hoping that a home invader is a thief, so isn't so interested in closing with me.
  2. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 5:43pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    That's the relevant part of your sentence. Knowing beforehand skews whatever you are training at that point in any endeavor. If we are training and they tell you i like sweeps, you'll be on guard for that technique even under pressure.
    Agreed, that's why I thought it was important to include. The clip was meant to illustrate diesel's point that you can't guarantee any number of hits before your weapon is neutralized. There are better examples around but this one sprung to mind.
  3. johnny_cage is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 5:49pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well its your opinion to prefer stick than a knife- so i cannot disagree with that. (though i feel differently)

    I very much disagree with your anecdote of being clipped in the face while 11- SOMEHOW being proof that a bat offer a one-shot fight stopper. (you were 11 and ENTIRELY unprepared- yet didnt break your skull/get KO'd/hurt enough to stay down . . .)

    "I'd prefer the stick because I don't think I'd be willing to use the knife effectively."- ok- valid point. But i just was just hoping that your preference for a bat was based of this- or that knives are in different side of the house> NOT because of some silly though that 1 full baseball swing connecting anywhere ends the fight.

    I agree a hurl is less effective than a well made bat- i agree a knife makes serious injury likely. . . but isnt that the point?

    And what i meant by 'judging' competence of the invader- if you grab a weapon and the dont run away for being confronted> likely equals training of substances adding to his confidence.

    If your reason for preferring a bat/stick has anything to do with reach/experience with it/availability etc i agree with your reasoning . .. I just disagree with the notion of cocking the bat 'home-plate style' and assuming that unless the opponent has a firearm you win . . . it seems that even with 1 full swing (even if not blocked) does not end the fight EVERYTIME . . . and for me- coupled with a bat/stick loses effectiveness after you close distance and make first contact . .. i would prefer a blade.
    Last edited by johnny_cage; 5/26/2012 5:54pm at . Reason: more explanation
  4. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 7:03pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_cage View Post
    I very much disagree with your anecdote of being clipped in the face while 11- SOMEHOW being proof that a bat offer a one-shot fight stopper. (you were 11 and ENTIRELY unprepared- yet didnt break your skull/get KO'd/hurt enough to stay down . . .)
    The story wasn't meant to end in that conclusion, that wasn't my intention. Looking back at what I posted, I see how it might come across that way. It was meant to show how survivable a belt of a hurl can be (I remember my mother being surprised at the time about how little injury there was).

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_cage View Post
    i agree a knife makes serious injury likely. . . but isnt that the point?
    It's a pretty important point alright, but right up to the moment when the aggressor decides to enter into range posturing is still important. A small knife may be more lethal than a cumbersome stick/bat but they act differently as deterrents. Once the **** hits the fan and we're in contact distance "non-firing" is an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_cage View Post
    And what i meant by 'judging' competence of the invader- if you grab a weapon and the dont run away for being confronted> likely equals training of substances adding to his confidence.
    If the invader doesn't flee it might be that they are capable and confident. It could also be misplaced confidence, stupidity or they haven't seen your weapon. I'm not sure if it likely means they're trained, but it all amounts to the same thing. I'm just nit-picking, since in this scenario we have to assume that every invader is willing to engage and has a concealed weapon e.g. a tool in their pocket they used to break in.

    I'm off to bed, thanks for making sure I'm not making dangerous mistakes.
  5. johnny_cage is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 7:15pm


     Style: Jujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    The story wasn't meant to end in that conclusion, that wasn't my intention. Looking back at what I posted, I see how it might come across that way. It was meant to show how survivable a belt of a hurl can be (I remember my mother being surprised at the time about how little injury there was).



    It's a pretty important point alright, but right up to the moment when the aggressor decides to enter into range posturing is still important. A small knife may be more lethal than a cumbersome stick/bat but they act differently as deterrents. Once the **** hits the fan and we're in contact distance "non-firing" is an issue.


    If the invader doesn't flee it might be that they are capable and confident. It could also be misplaced confidence, stupidity or they haven't seen your weapon. I'm not sure if it likely means they're trained, but it all amounts to the same thing. I'm just nit-picking, since in this scenario we have to assume that every invader is willing to engage and has a concealed weapon e.g. a tool in their pocket they used to break in.

    I'm off to bed, thanks for making sure I'm not making dangerous mistakes.
    I agree- and good chat- But 1 question .. . DOES a bat have a better deterrent effect? I would instinctually think the opposite> that a blade of nearly any size would be a greater deterrent than a blunt weapon.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 11:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the blade is a good deterrent, but you have to make sure they see it. I've read a few case studies where people were in fights, one person pulled a blade, and the other person never knew a knife was pulled. But, I think that they probably didn't really intend for the blade to be seen.

    If you are using it as a deterrent, and are trying to make the other person see it, then it is a pretty good deterrent. On the flip side, having had sticks and a cane wiz by my face, that's a pretty good deterrent too!
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  7. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 2:54am

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    I can ask my local professionals of course, but i think it a relevant enough a question to ask in this thread, for discussion sake;
    in my duty to retreat state (and of course i'd like to hear about other states) would brandishing a weapon, say a knife, to halt an attack likely be illegal?
  8. SteveM is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 3:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    I can ask my local professionals of course, but i think it a relevant enough a question to ask in this thread, for discussion sake;
    in my duty to retreat state (and of course i'd like to hear about other states) would brandishing a weapon, say a knife, to halt an attack likely be illegal?
    Since 2010 Hawaii has had a "Castle Doctrine" law whereby there is no duty to retreat in the home so you would be good "brandishing" there. Outside the home it's a lot more complicated.
  9. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 3:49am

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Since 2010 Hawaii has had a "Castle Doctrine" law whereby there is no duty to retreat in the home so you would be good "brandishing" there. Outside the home it's a lot more complicated.
    Yes, understood. See my earlier posts in this thread. I am derailing slightly, yes. Sorry if that was unclear, but i am trying to open up a more general discussion because the thread is getting redundant. I am well versed in my local laws and have access to legal and LE professionals, thus "for discussions sake".

    I am referring specifically to the instances where duty to retreat applies (or not as the case may have it), Is brandishing a weapon likely illegal if one simply brandishes to halt an assault etc., or is it an escalation?
  10. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 5:31am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_cage View Post
    I agree- and good chat- But 1 question .. . DOES a bat have a better deterrent effect? I would instinctually think the opposite> that a blade of nearly any size would be a greater deterrent than a blunt weapon.
    I'm not sure. A knife has the greater damage in its favour. A stick has the advantage of being more visable (more likely to be seen) and easy posturing.
    You can hit a wall to make noise and demonstrate force, much like firing a gun in the air. You could also take fresh air swings.
    I recently read "On Combat" by Dave Grossman, so his ideas are still going around my mind. He claims that the firearm took over from the bow in battles before it was a more efficient killing device because of the noise being intimidating. Arguing for a stick follows the same line.

    There are other ways to be intimidating without causing noise, e.g. quietly take down one of a group and let the others see it but display no emotion. This is possible with a knife. The message there is "my posturing is minimal but my effect is great, fear me because you can't read me."

    Anecdote against the noise as deterrent:
    I walked into a shop in the city centre. It was only when I was well in the door I realised there was an argument going on. The staff were arguing with a gang who looked like winos or junkies. It was something about shoplifting and excessive use of force, I don't know.
    Anyway there was a young hot-headed clerk who was behind the desk holding a short metal bar / cudgel. Once or twice he hit it off the counter to try to scare the guy who was shouting at him. It didn't work for various reasons (other clerks holding him back, counter in the way, junky saw the hit on his friend hadn't been fatal, etc.).
    Last edited by realjanuary; 5/27/2012 5:33am at . Reason: grammer
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