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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2012 6:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is relevant here:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116479

    A hurley is comparable to a baseball bat, no? At 7 seconds in, we see and hear a solid swing that seems to land on the clavicle area, and the guy barely responds at all. This is a big swing in an open space; inside a house you may not be able to get such a kinetic power swing. So, the idea that
    You hit someone with a bat a couple of times, even if they block it, they're pretty much done. What're they gonna do? Feel you up with their broken arms? Lot easier to brain a guy with too.
    should probably not be treated as an absolute. There's a good chance that if you're armed with a bat and some deranged person is closing on you, they'll shrug off one hit and then be too close for a followup.
  2. Estarlio is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2012 8:41pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guy in the red taking a swing at the guy in the blue hoodie, while they're restraining the other red guy against the wall? Hard to see what's going on. He's swinging in with the flat side of the thing in one frame and then the next he's got a broken stick in his hand.

    Spoiler:




    Maybe he just ended up breaking the weedy part of the handle across the other red guy's back?

    Haven't been able to find much by way of vids of people laying into each other with baseball bats. There's some fat guy piling out of his car with one - and the guy he hits goes down fairly promptly.

    This guy doesn't seem to have come off too well, even if they did make it more bother than it was worth for the criminals.

    http://youtu.be/IQcGm7H5ZkQ
  3. johnny_cage is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 8:29am


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    This is relevant here:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116479

    A hurley is comparable to a baseball bat, no? At 7 seconds in, we see and hear a solid swing that seems to land on the clavicle area, and the guy barely responds at all. This is a big swing in an open space; inside a house you may not be able to get such a kinetic power swing. So, the idea that

    should probably not be treated as an absolute. There's a good chance that if you're armed with a bat and some deranged person is closing on you, they'll shrug off one hit and then be too close for a followup.
    Nice post- thats what i was wondering; If someone tee'd up and swung for the fences with a bat . . . WOULD it cause serious trauma (enough to end a fight) and i think that video provides some context that at the very least it is not a guaranteed victory.

    Coupled with the whole north-american 'anything used is a weapon' i would prefer a blade personally. I would guess a wasp nest of slashes would work just as well as a baseball stance to keep someone at distance. Also the knife INCREASES in uses and effectiveness when range shortens (baseball bat becomes useless) and it requires less room to swing.
    {also for the record- i would be more inclined to slash any limp nearest while side stepping and avoiding- as opposed to going in for the prison-rush.}
  4. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 2:28pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A hurl is different from a baseball bat in at least two important ways.
    The hurley/cumán/hurl is made of ash and is fairly thin. This means it can flex quite a bit. Add getting hit with the flat to the flexibility and a "beat off a hurl" isn't as bad as it looks.
    People are conditioned to hit with the flat, because that's the way it's used in the game. There's an expectation that it won't cause serious damage when used this way, particularily when aimed at the "meat" instead of at the hands or head.

    The guy in the blue in the above video does a good shoulder roll to protect against the first strike aimed at his head. After the second one that broke the hurl you can see him switch grip so he's swinging with "toe" aiming forward. The smaller surface area and the fact that the hurl won't bend in that direction changes it from a faction fight weapon to a war club.


    Re: the hurl in it's natural environment
    For the most part the worst injuries are broken fingers and banged up shins, but injury is enough of an issue that helmets are being introduced. Every now and then you'll get some tosser giving someone a little love tap (link) in a scuffle.

    I was walking off a pitch once without a helmet and the guy beside me took a swing, caught me right in the face. I was knocked down and dazed but no more permenant damage than a black eye.
  5. johnny_cage is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 3:35pm


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    see- thats what worries me. He took a FULL swing and you werent prepared . . . if you were charging him with intent- AND his swing was a little rushed . . . thats my point- A BLACK EYE/ HEAD HURTING isnt in my eyes a fight stopper (not without several more hits anyway).

    So in my mind unless i can see some significant examples of someone 1 shot-ting someone with a baseball bat (and i dont mean a sucker hit to the jaw) I would 100% prefer a blade.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 4:31pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are definately going to do more damage to someone using a knife rather than a stick or bat. I mean, I routinely get hit with sticks and can deal pretty well with it. I also have been hit with a can on the compound by an inmate, and still proceeded to take him down, with no other damage than a bruise on my arm.

    Stick again gun, you are pretty much trying to disarm him. If you can break his hand or knock the gun out of his hand, that's what you are going for. Damage to him, is secondary. The main benefit, in my opinion is reach. I can strike the gun quicker with a stick than with a knife, which is pretty crucial since I'm trying to do that before he shoots me.

    Against an unarmed apponent, knife is a quicker and will inflict a lot more damage. Especially if you know how to use it. Also, if the person being attacked has any training, I would prefer a knife. Because with the stick you are getting two, maybe three strikes before he gets the clench. With a knife, I'll probably kill you.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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  7. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 4:48pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's some more detail on that story.
    We were warming up before training, just passing the ball around. Someone went in goal so myself and my friend walked off to get our helmets so we could join in.
    We were walking side by side, I was on the left. As we were talking he took an idle swing in the air, but followed through and caught me in the face. We were about 11 years old at the time.

    It probably wasn't a full swing
    I was past the strongest part of the swing
    We were kids
    It still knocked me down

    I'd go for a stick/club/bat over a knife for the distance and continuum of force issues.
  8. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2012 5:16pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Against an unarmed apponent, knife is a quicker and will inflict a lot more damage. Especially if you know how to use it. Also, if the person being attacked has any training, I would prefer a knife. Because with the stick you are getting two, maybe three strikes before he gets the clench. With a knife, I'll probably kill you.
    "You can't aim to maim, you aim to kill" is think is almost as relevent with knives as it is with guns.

    A training partner was missing the first few times I played with padded stick sprarring. The others told her that I liked to grab the weapon wrist. Her reply was along the lines of "you can try that on me but you won't be able to." Here's what happened (I'm the guy in the gi, relevant "bait and close" entry around 2 min and a few times after that. She was rusty and I'm not so hot at this.).
  9. johnny_cage is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 9:00am


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    Here's some more detail on that story.
    We were warming up before training, just passing the ball around. Someone went in goal so myself and my friend walked off to get our helmets so we could join in.
    We were walking side by side, I was on the left. As we were talking he took an idle swing in the air, but followed through and caught me in the face. We were about 11 years old at the time.

    It probably wasn't a full swing
    I was past the strongest part of the swing
    We were kids
    It still knocked me down

    I'd go for a stick/club/bat over a knife for the distance and continuum of force issues.

    See- once again- i disagree entirely with your assertion here;
    You were 11 and were absolutely unprepared(and all it did was knock you down- im assuming you arent dead) and it contacted straight with your head . .. what do you think would occur if you blocked at all? or if you were an adult/prepared and guarding?

    I agree with diesel- if they appear trained in anything- blade all the way (bat becomes limited as range decreases) but against a firearm the distance is useful.

    Im just thinking in the sense that- if i was attacking someone and they swing a full-tilt-bat at me .. . would that end it? or just hurt . . . and from the examples i have seen there is no guarantee it is a one-stopper EVEN if you connect.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2012 9:16am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    "You can't aim to maim, you aim to kill" is think is almost as relevent with knives as it is with guns.

    A training partner was missing the first few times I played with padded stick sprarring. The others told her that I liked to grab the weapon wrist. Her reply was along the lines of "you can try that on me but you won't be able to." Here's what happened (I'm the guy in the gi, relevant "bait and close" entry around 2 min and a few times after that. She was rusty and I'm not so hot at this.).
    That's the relevant part of your sentence. Knowing beforehand skews whatever you are training at that point in any endeavor. If we are training and they tell you i like sweeps, you'll be on guard for that technique even under pressure.
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