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  1. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 9:56am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Philosophically, it's as simple as Americans have the right to be armed as part of the fundamental structure of our republic. The consequences and advantages of this are meat for many contentious debate, but it is fundamental enough to have made it the second-most important clause in our constitution.

    Statistically, it's a quagmire.

    America is ranked 34th in the world for per capita murder rate. Despite having a per capita gun ownership significantly higher than virtually every other country on the list. In fact, seven of the top ten countries for murder rate outright ban or severely restrict private firearm ownership.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

    BUT:
    Firearms DO account for 2/3 of all our homicides in the US.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-us-state#data

    The question is: would eliminating the guns eliminate these homicides?

    To further muddy your waters:

    The US has violent crime rate of about 38 per 1000. The UK has a violent crime rate of 138 per 1000; or 3.68 times as much violent crime as the US. Maybe some armed citizens could reduce the quantity the beatings, muggings, b&E's and stabbings that plague the UK?
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...e-total-crimes

    None of this really means anything, though. Crime is a holistic phenomena, with literally an infinite number of factors affecting crime rates in every country and culture. I love guns but I am too good at the statistics game to draw premature conclusions.

    The reality is, American culture evolved, exists, and flourishes because of (and in spite of) gun ownership. Just like England's high crime rate, it's part of the landscape and lexicon. The attitude of complete self-reliance and ultimate sovereignty of the individual is how America defined itself through it's birth and adolescence, and it remains very critical to much of our population. For good or for ill, that's the way it is.

    It has advantages and disadvantages. But I would not trade it for the British method any day.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  2. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 9:57am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By the way, statistical crime reporting is its own nightmare. Maybe I'll do an article...
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  3. tgace is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 10:05am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    By the way, statistical crime reporting is its own nightmare. Maybe I'll do an article...
    You aint just whistling dixie there my friend. :)
  4. Auszi is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 10:28am


     Style: BJJ Beginner

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    America is ranked 34th in the world for per capita murder rate. Despite having a per capita gun ownership significantly higher than virtually every other country on the list. In fact, seven of the top ten countries for murder rate outright ban or severely restrict private firearm ownership.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
    As you have said, it is not that simple. Just looking at the link you provided, yes the U.S.A is 34th but you then have to look at the countries the US beating, most if not all are poorer developing countries or have gone through a period of recent political instability, and those top ten include star performers like Columbia and Jamaica.

    None of this really means anything, though. Crime is a holistic phenomena, with literally an infinite number of factors affecting crime rates in every country and culture.
    I think I remember reading somewhere that poverty was a huge factor on crime rates, don't quote me on that but I am sure someone here will have a better answer.

    It has advantages and disadvantages. But I would not trade it for the British method any day.
    I think if I had the choice between a higher risk of being beaten and living or a lower risk but being shot and killed. I would choose the first option.
    Last edited by Auszi; 12/23/2011 10:34am at .
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 10:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper View Post
    By the way, statistical crime reporting is its own nightmare. Maybe I'll do an article...
    Don't. I tried and as my math teacher said statistics are BS. They support what ever side is trying to "win."

    They are good for trends not debates.
  6. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 11:07am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ded Morose View Post
    As you have said, it is not that simple. Just looking at the link you provided, yes the U.S.A is 34th but you then have to look at the countries the US beating, most if not all are poorer developing countries or have gone through a period of recent political instability, and those top ten include star performers like Columbia and Jamaica.



    I think I remember reading somewhere that poverty was a huge factor on crime rates, don't quote me on that but I am sure someone here will have a better answer.



    I think if I had the choice between a higher risk of being beaten and living or a lower risk but being shot and killed. I would choose the first option.
    First you would have to prove that England has a higher survival rate of violent crimes which I doubt you can. And what if your option is being armed and being able to prevent the attack from ever occurring. I would much rather be able to protect my family from a home invasion than have to beg my attacker not to kill me or those I care about.
  7. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 11:13am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ded Morose View Post
    As you have said, it is not that simple. Just looking at the link you provided, yes the U.S.A is 34th but you then have to look at the countries the US beating, most if not all are poorer developing countries or have gone through a period of recent political instability, and those top ten include star performers like Columbia and Jamaica.



    I think I remember reading somewhere that poverty was a huge factor on crime rates, don't quote me on that but I am sure someone here will have a better answer.



    I think if I had the choice between a higher risk of being beaten and living or a lower risk but being shot and killed. I would choose the first option.

    To your first point, I am not sure what your angle is. Lots of things affect crime rate. That's what I'm saying. Poverty is one of them. As are culture and education, and a schmillion other things.

    To your second: I know. Poverty makes people desperate. Desperation leads to extremism. So does religious fervor, cultural memes, and a schmillion other things.

    To your third point:
    I am going to nudge you with the false dichotomy stick. I posit that my possession of a firearm does a hell of a lot to preclude a violent crime being perpetrated on me in the first place. But we are well into emotional arguments at this point; so I will certainly accept that your logic is applicable as it pertains to a personal life choice.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  8. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 11:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    First you would have to prove that England has a higher survival rate of violent crimes which I doubt you can. And what if your option is being armed and being able to prevent the attack from ever occurring. I would much rather be able to protect my family from a home invasion than have to beg my attacker not to kill me or those I care about.
    England's murder ate is about 1.71 per 100,000 which is damned good actually (Consider USA's 4.2). The real takeaway is that while England's violent crime rate is enormously higher, the crimes tend to be a more survivable.

    If England had the same murder vs violent crime Ratio as the US, it would rank in the top ten easily.

    Some more fun with numbers:
    Went to the FBI and census bureau. Of the 8000 or so gun deaths in the US, only 5000 were considered "murders." The rest are justifiable homicide, self-defense, police action, negligent homicide, etc.
    http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0306.pdf

    SO:
    If England had the same ratio, we get 20592 annual gun murders. That's Mexico-level numbers.

    Out of 429,000 violent crimes in the US in 2009, 12,000 were homicides. 8000 or so were homicides with a firearm. 5000 were actual firearm murders. That's a gun-murder per violent crime ratio of .012%

    England has about 800 homicides a year. Almost none with guns.

    The more I dig the weirder it gets, too.

    England does not report crimes against children under 16. Don't know why, several advocates say ta this makes their violent crime rate closer to ten times the US. I wanna see the numbers before I buy into that.

    Finally, there is just no objective way to tell if guns have anything to do with anything. it's all going to boil down to how the individual weights each factor.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  9. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 11:51am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and BTW...

    I'm MURDERING this debate!

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
















    sorry
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  10. Auszi is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2011 12:02pm


     Style: BJJ Beginner

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    First you would have to prove that England has a higher survival rate of violent crimes which I doubt you can. And what if your option is being armed and being able to prevent the attack from ever occurring. I would much rather be able to protect my family from a home invasion than have to beg my attacker not to kill me or those I care about.
    Just using what I could see from the link and info Scrapper posted, U.S has a higher homicide rate than and deaths from firearms than the UK but the UK has a higher incidence of violent crime, that led me to the conclusion I came to before.

    To your first point, I am not sure what your angle is. Lots of things affect crime rate. That's what I'm saying. Poverty is one of them. As are culture and education, and a schmillion other things.
    34th sounds impressive until you see the countries that your ahead of. For whatever reason I wouldn't think they make a fair comparison, as far is that is possible between countries.

    To your third point:
    I am going to nudge you with the false dichotomy stick. I posit that my possession of a firearm does a hell of a lot to preclude a violent crime being perpetrated on me in the first place. But we are well into emotional arguments at this point; so I will certainly accept that your logic is applicable as it pertains to a personal life choice.
    I agree a lot with what Judo UK said. I like shooting but I assume it is a lot easier physically and psychologically to kill someone with a gun than say with a knife especially if you are untrained. If they are difficult to obtain then it is another barrier, however minor, between someone using a gun to take someones life. It would have to be a very extreme situation for me to consider justifying taking someones life in any fashion.

    That all said, I have read some good arguments for gun ownership here recently it hasn't changed my mind but I am interested to see what people say here.
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