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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 11:41am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scut Farkus View Post
    Why? I actually think it's a credit to him that he came out and tried to do something different. His freight train tactics haven't been working out too well for a while. To me it shows that he was probably training hard and learning and wanted to offer his opponent a different look.

    Physically, he was a beast against Velasquez. Watch the fight again. He showed LOTS of power in that fight and lots of agressiveness and he still lost. He got out techniqued. Why would he keep repeating a failed tactic?
    Because unlike Carwin and Cain, Overeem isn't a high level DIV 1 wrestler like Cain or a DIV 2 wrestling champ like Carwin.

    Lesnar is a former Div 1 Champ.

    Trying to stand with Overeem was retarded.

    Bull rushing guys is what got him his success. If he did that to Overeem and still lost then I would say Overeem beat Lesnar at what he does best.

    The Lesnar I saw wasn't the same Lesnar we saw at first.

    The early Lesnar was a 300 pound monster who cut to make 265 and ran through people with no regards to their skill set.

    This Lesnar was scared and tentative.
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 11:44am

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    Last edited by Goju - Joe; 1/04/2012 11:45am at . Reason: repeat
  3. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 11:47am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    Because unlike Carwin and Cain, Overeem isn't a high level DIV 1 wrestler like Cain or a DIV 2 wrestling champ like Carwin.

    Lesnar is a former Div 1 Champ.

    Trying to stand with Overeem was retarded.

    Bull rushing guys is what got him his success. If he did that to Overeem and still lost then I would say Overeem beat Lesnar at what he does best.

    The Lesnar I saw wasn't the same Lesnar we saw at first.

    The early Lesnar was a 300 pound monster who cut to make 265 and ran through people with no regards to their skill set.

    This Lesnar was scared and tentative.
    Yeah, I just don't see it that way at all. I think he's the same now as he was during his first fight - one dimensional. He had the skill and power to be dangerous to anyone, but he also had very little MMA experience. His lack of experience left him nowhere to turn when his one trick stopped working.

    It's really no secret fighters need to be well rounded to win consistently at the highest level of MMA.
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 1:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scut Farkus View Post
    Yeah, I just don't see it that way at all. I think he's the same now as he was during his first fight - one dimensional. He had the skill and power to be dangerous to anyone, but he also had very little MMA experience. His lack of experience left him nowhere to turn when his one trick stopped working.

    It's really no secret fighters need to be well rounded to win consistently at the highest level of MMA.
    I don't disagree but his one trick was to shoot in like a Freight Train over power you and take you down.

    If he had done that against Overeem and had Overeem stuffed his take down in a GSP manner I would felt that we saw Lesnar doing what he does best and that Overeem was just too good. Instead Lesnar through a weak ass leg kick.
  5. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 1:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    Because unlike Carwin and Cain, Overeem isn't a high level DIV 1 wrestler like Cain or a DIV 2 wrestling champ like Carwin.
    Right, Overeem is a multi-promotional mma champion, and recent k1 champ with 60+ fights worth of experience, including 19 subs, many of which are guillotines (including standing).

    Lesnar is a former Div 1 Champ.
    About 12 years ago. He wasn't fighting for most of the interim. WWE is a tough show, but it isn't fighting.

    Lesnar is an accomplished amateur wrestler, winning the 2000 NCAA heavyweight wrestling championship and placing second in 1999, losing in the finals to 1999 world freestyle wrestling champion and future New England Patriots offensive lineman Stephen Neal.
    Would you pick Stephen Neal to beat Overeem, on wrestling pedigree alone? He beat Lesnar, that means he's god to god, god bless him.
    Bull rushing guys is what got him his success. If he did that to Overeem and still lost then I would say Overeem beat Lesnar at what he does best.
    Cain shut that **** down. Why would he think he could rush Overeem? What a game plan.

    The Lesnar I saw wasn't the same Lesnar we saw at first.
    You saw post exposure Lesnar, fighting once his gimmick was thwarted (by a much smaller fighter in Cain).
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 1:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    Right, Overeem is a multi-promotional mma champion, and recent k1 champ with 60+ fights worth of experience, including 19 subs, many of which are guillotines (including standing).
    I am talking about Overeems wrestling ability to stuff lesnar's takedowns.

    Overeem's wrestling pedigree is far less than Lesnar's or the other people he fought.
    About 12 years ago. He wasn't fighting for most of the interim. WWE is a tough show, but it isn't fighting.

    Would you pick Stephen Neal to beat Overeem, on wrestling pedigree alone? He beat Lesnar, that means he's god to god, god bless him.
    Cain shut that **** down. Why would he think he could rush Overeem? What a game plan.
    Because Overeem isn't Cain. And Lesnar had a much better chance at keeping Overeem down than standing a striking with him.

    You saw post exposure Lesnar, fighting once his gimmick was thwarted (by a much smaller fighter in Cain).
    I saw a guy give up on what got him to the dance and had no real heart to be in there.

    My point has been this was not the same fighter who first fought 5 years ago.
  7. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 2:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    I saw a guy give up on what got him to the dance and had no real heart to be in there.
    PPV draw is what got him there. Lots of other fighters win their first pro fight convincingly. The fact that he was already famous in WWE and a huge guy got him in the UFC. That and weight cutting, which affected his health.

    He got more of a promotional credibility bump, than anyone I've ever seen (in fighting, save Kimbo). Specifically because he didn't work his way up, building a record, it took several fights for his weaknesses to show. Once they did, he virtually fell apart.

    Also, he was not the best, or the most decorated wrestler in MMA (the sport, not the entertainment rallslin).
  8. Kambei Shimada is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 5:28pm


     Style: Sub-Grap/MMA

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    Overeems grappling is far better than he's given credit for.

    People forget he actually started out in grappling (sub wrestling) when he was 15. That's a solid 16 years of training.





    Also to some extent I agree with Goju.
    I think the beatings Lesnar took in both the Carwin and Velasquez fights have completely rocked Lesnars confidence.
    Last edited by Kambei Shimada; 1/04/2012 5:35pm at .
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 6:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja View Post
    PPV draw is what got him there. Lots of other fighters win their first pro fight convincingly. The fact that he was already famous in WWE and a huge guy got him in the UFC. That and weight cutting, which affected his health.

    He got more of a promotional credibility bump, than anyone I've ever seen (in fighting, save Kimbo). Specifically because he didn't work his way up, building a record, it took several fights for his weaknesses to show. Once they did, he virtually fell apart.

    Also, he was not the best, or the most decorated wrestler in MMA (the sport, not the entertainment rallslin).
    Sure but he still won and beat tough competition.

    Before his fight with Carwin no one made it out if the 1st rd against Shane.

    Mir breaks peoples arm.

    Couture is a legend yes he's old but he's always been old.

    Herring was highly touted.

    You just can't shrug those achievements off.
  10. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2012 10:56pm

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    Giant Compound Drunk Spoiler
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    Spoiler:


    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    Sure but he still won and beat tough competition.
    He did, but not much of it. Mir (2nd time), and Carwin (barely). Herring is not generally considered a contender, at this point, neither is Min Soo Kim. Beating an older legend like Randy, while having 70lbs of an advantage is still impressive, but not earth shattering.
    Before his fight with Carwin no one made it out if the 1st rd against Shane.
    True, but until Gabriel Gonzaga and Frank Muir, the guys to not escape the 1st round were:
    Carlton Jones, Casey Jackson, Jay McCown, Justice Smith, Chris Guillen, Rick Slaton, Rex Richards, Sherman Pendergarst, Christian Wellisch, and Neil Wain.

    Carwin had 2 victories over "names" (Gonzaga/Mir). The others? These are not fights to base a legend on, even if he's a very dangerous fighter. Carwin is 2 - 2 against "top" guys. I like Carwin, but let's not get giddy. It's because the HW division is so thin, that some of these guys get the props they do, at the point they do.

    You just can't shrug those achievements off.
    Not shrugging them off, but putting them in perspective. He was never the baddest anything in the MMA HW landscape, other than the baddest pay per view draw, which is honestly impressive, and was important to the burgeoning sport....and the biggest weight cutter (irony)

    Would you bet on him against Barnett? Cormier? an Overeem rematch? Bigfoot Silva? Where do you put him?

    balls rant
    Spoiler:

    I give props for balls, and heart. I'm a bigger Heath Herring fan, than Brock fan. Legendary heart and heavydutyness, is something like Ronnie Lott having a pinky tip amputated so he wouldn't miss a game of football. It's rugby players having their broken nose, or ripped ear taped down, so they can go back into the scrum. It's Fedor virtually kickboxing Crocop when he was the most feared striker in mma.

    A guy in Lesnar's position of size/power/wrestling pedigree did ok, for what he had going. He never got a deadly serious mma camp going, whatever hours he put in on the weights. Someone like Fedor worked his ass off, to be able to fight undefeated for so many years, against largely bigger fighters. Enough that people made fun of him fighting a LHW, when he was in the same relative position for much of his career.

    [/balls]
    If I can get nerdy and passe, Overeem is to Lesnar what Gandalf the White was to Saruman. What he should/could have been
    [/nerdy]

    Last edited by bobyclumsyninja; 1/04/2012 10:59pm at .
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