UFC 141: Lesnar vs Overeem - Nate Diaz vs Donald Cerrone, Phan - Friday Dec. 30, 2011

**Devil** · Posted On: 1/03/2012 5:09pm

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

Don't forget Lesnar's glass jaw, just because he survived a beating from a guy who had previously knocked the **** out of almost everyone and managed to win doesn't mean he was tough could take a punch and had heart.

I didn't say he had a glass jaw. You're putting words in my mouth. I said he runs when he gets hit hard, which is exactly what happened for three fights in a row - two of which he still had his precious foot of intestine.

**Shawarma** · Posted On: 1/03/2012 5:48pm

Originally Posted by CNagy

I wouldn't be surprised if the Carwin fight broke Lesnar's own sense of invincibility. Sure, he had lost to Mir before, but it because he got caught in a kneebar and he later avenged that. Carwin just beat on him for the duration of his gas tank, and I'm sure Lesnar knew that he won by the grace of Carwin's lack of stamina. Cue the loss to Cain, and now Overeem. In the Overeem fight, he looked defeated before it even started.

Agreed. Ever since Carwin did did the hamfist tapdance on Lesnar's face, he folded like a house of cards the moment Velasquez and Overeem hit him. I still rate those two defeats as victories for Carwin by very delayed pressure point KO.

People who claim Lesnar has "a weak chin" are incorrect. Lesnar clearly has an excellent chin. He just doesn't have that much heart.

Lesnar would still beat anyone in the UFC but the top five or so. His size is immense and his wrestling skill legit. It pisses me off how people brush him off as being some kind of white Bob Sapp.

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 1/03/2012 9:45pm

Originally Posted by Shawarma

It pisses me off how people brush him off as being some kind of white Bob Sapp.

Bob Sapp beat Ernesto Hoost twice in K1. Yes he had 100 lbs on him, but still. I laugh at the turtle dance, but Bob Sapp is dangerous to anyone, because he's huge, and hits really hard. Flinchy-ness aside. Lesnar was likewise a threat to everyone, because he was fast for approx. 290 lbs, and could wrestle his ass off.

He couldn't get Cain into a gnp situation, and fell apart. I say he didn't charge Overeem, because he knew the best knees in the business were praying for him to do so. That and Overeem is taller than Brock. Bullies don't like to all-in against bigger looking guys, in case they get bullied themselves.

Lesnar's leg kicks are a joke. Someone might take it as evidence of him not being 100%, but when did he ever throw effective leg kicks? He didn't have the training for them. Same with punching. Yes he caught Randy Couture, a man who weighed in at 220. Lesnar weighed in at 265, and likely added 15-25 lbs on before fight time. Is it that shocking that when he did catch him, it downed the guy?

If Anderson Silva knocked out a 155 lber, would it be that unbelievable? Even if it was a heavy duty guy? Would that be a basis for admiration?

Lesnar's perceived "dominance" came greatly from his size, strength, and speed for that size. Positional dominance from the "tackle". These are all great things, but he wasn't a good striker, by top tier standards, and his footwork left something to be disired. Upon getting hit hard, he was a bit too flinchy, and under intense pressure he either went fetal, or turtle-whirled around.

He needed a non-yes-men camp. With all his money, he should have been training leg kicks with Ernesto Hoost, BJJ with someone heavy, boxing with someone else heavy, and sparring dozens of really really good guys from around the world. He should have had a dream camp. That was the only way he would survive at the top, for more than a couple of fights (until people figured him out a bit).

**hapkido_keith** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 12:15am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

Yes he's a terrible fighter who became UFC champ and having 13 inches of intestine cut from his body has no effect on him whatsoever, it's like an ingrown toe nail.

Do you think that the fight would have turned out significantly different if Lesnar had 13 more inches of intestine?

**Shawarma** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 6:59am

Originally Posted by bobyclumsyninja

Bob Sapp beat Ernesto Hoost twice in K1. Yes he had 100 lbs on him, but still. I laugh at the turtle dance, but Bob Sapp is dangerous to anyone, because he's huge, and hits really hard. Flinchy-ness aside. Lesnar was likewise a threat to everyone, because he was fast for approx. 290 lbs, and could wrestle his ass off.

In other words, he is not like Bob Sapp at all.

Lesnar has an extremely legit skillset and a past as a high-calibre wrestler. Sapp was a football player competing in MMA when the quality of competitors was half of what it is today. If the Sapp of yesteryear joined MMA today, he would not accomplish one tenth of what Lesnar has accomplished.

It's OK to hate Lesnar, but give him some credit for actually being good at what he does beyond his obvious physical gifts. He's just not good enough and certainly not gutsy enough.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 11:24am

Originally Posted by hapkido_keith

Do you think that the fight would have turned out significantly different if Lesnar had 13 more inches of intestine?

I think it would have been a more aggressive Lesnar.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 11:30am

Originally Posted by Scut Farkus

I didn't say he had a glass jaw. You're putting words in my mouth. I said he runs when he gets hit hard, which is exactly what happened for three fights in a row - two of which he still had his precious foot of intestine.

he had Diverticulitis for 3 of his last 3 fights.

The removal of 13 inches was a last chance to try and beat it.

Also trying to get out if the way when getting hit isn't running.

When Cain was tagging him he shot for a single.

He kept moving when Carwin was pounding him and avoided the stoppage.

**Devil** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 11:31am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

I think it would have been a more aggressive Lesnar.

Why? I actually think it's a credit to him that he came out and tried to do something different. His freight train tactics haven't been working out too well for a while. To me it shows he was probably training hard and learning and wanted to offer his opponent a different look.

Physically, he was a beast against Velasquez. Watch the fight again. He showed LOTS of power in that fight and lots of aggressiveness and he still lost. He got out techniqued. Why would he keep repeating a failed tactic?

***Tranquil Suit*** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 11:36am

Originally Posted by Scut Farkus

Why? I actually think it's a credit to him that he came out and tried to do something different. His freight train tactics haven't been working out too well for a while. To me it shows that he was probably training hard and learning and wanted to offer his opponent a different look.

Physically, he was a beast against Velasquez. Watch the fight again. He showed LOTS of power in that fight and lots of agressiveness and he still lost. He got out techniqued. Why would he keep repeating a failed tactic?

Now you're giving Lesnar too much credit in the brains department.

**Devil** · Posted On: 1/04/2012 11:40am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

he had Diverticulitis for 3 of his last 3 fights.

Against Overeem he got dusted too early to tell, but against Carwin and Velasquez his strength was without a doubt a non-issue. Look at the power in his submission against Carwin. Look at the way he picked up Velasquez for throws.

He got pounded on because he doesn't respond well to strikes. Only the highest level of nutrider would deny that.