Crab/Philly Shell?

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 12/16/2011 6:57pm

This is also a peekaboo guard, albeit of the Archie Moore 'dracula style' variation. The attributes which make the Cus D'Amato style you are used to seeing pretty much will take you a long way towards making this work, too. If you can make it work, it will work well for kicking, too. The variation is more angled to one side, however, making it much harder to implement and also have an effective shoot & takedown defense.

You can do some damn fine hotdogging from this variation, though.

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 12/16/2011 7:27pm

Originally Posted by ChenPengFi

I'd like to single this one out if you do not mind.
Is a Thai clinch one of your go to's to prevent a takedown in that situation, or is pummeling, over/under etc better?

No. Not stop a takedown but it is my go to for turning my opponent and getting myself off the ropes.

**PointyShinyBurn** · Posted On: 12/17/2011 12:57pm

Originally Posted by ChenPengFi

Chun? You're an idiot.

I was talking to Ice Hole, who was going on about Bong Sau. Way to pointlessly be a dick, though!

**W. Rabbit** · Posted On: 12/17/2011 9:46pm

Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn

I was talking to Ice Hole, who was going on about Bong Sau. Way to pointlessly be a dick, though!

I thought he was funny. You insulted his lineage (unintentionally) when you compared it to Chun (and I think that picture I grabbed off Google was a Chunner, so my bad for the confusion).

Bong sau is not exclusive to Chun, it's common in a few CMA styles and at least in Hung ga, it's one of a few major bridging methods. It's not a "guard" in the boxing sense when used in CMA. There are several variations that I know of but the one in the image is essentially an inside forearm block that would be immediately followed with a counter with the other arm.

It's not really the same thing as the Philly Shell, it looks similar to it but only if you took a snap shot in time, and my (noob) question to Chen was is there anything really similar with the body movement between the two. I guess there is as far as the arms and waist movement are concerned...but that's about it.

You would not stay in the "bong sau" position while fighting at all, in fact as people have pointed out with the boxing discussion, you'd be hit pretty easily by someone able to angle and hit you from the side or back.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 12/17/2011 10:22pm

Originally Posted by Ice Hole

It's not really the same thing as the Philly Shell, it looks similar to it but only if you took a snap shot in time, and my (noob) question to Chen was is there anything really similar with the body movement between the two. I guess there is as far as the arms and waist movement are concerned...but that's about it.

Grumble, so why are we discussing it if it's "not rally the same thing as Philly Shell"? You should know better than most how I'm a stickler for staying on topic in the technique section.

Stay on topic people, and keep the flaming to a minimum. There should be no posts in the training areas that do not mention the thread topic. Right, PSB?

/Grumble.

Edit: And don't apologize or even respond to this post. That would be yet another off topic post in the technique section.

**brclry** · Posted On: 1/17/2012 1:26pm

Noob here, feel free to talk crap.
Permalost said that the guy he saw using the philly shell was intercepting attacks with a side kick, and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong. The lead fist is held in front of the body, knuckles on center line, pointed at the other persons head, and the rear hand is slightly off center on the cheek, or in front of the face off center ready to parry, those are really the only differences as far as hand placement goes. Defence is similar, shoulder roll, Elbow block (Bong Sau), standard hook cover, but the lead hand is in a more usefull position, ready to fire a jab, or stuff a take down. Any thoughts?

**Permalost** · Posted On: 1/17/2012 1:35pm

Originally Posted by brclry

Noob here, feel free to talk crap.
Permalost said that the guy he saw using the philly shell was intercepting attacks with a side kick, and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong. The lead fist is held in front of the body, knuckles on center line, pointed at the other persons head, and the rear hand is slightly off center on the cheek, or in front of the face off center ready to parry, those are really the only differences as far as hand placement goes. Defence is similar, shoulder roll, Elbow block (Bong Sau), standard hook cover, but the lead hand is in a more usefull position, ready to fire a jab, or stuff a take down. Any thoughts?

I prefer the stance you're describing, but if you're keeping your lead hand upright and pointed at your opponent's face, that's not exactly a philly shell. The shell is where the lead hand is low and across, like this:

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 1/17/2012 4:01pm

Originally Posted by brclry

... and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong.

No, I didn't mention that. You did. I specifically said a sideways stance makes it harder to implement under less stringent rules.

The stance of which you speak is a staple of Kempo Karate, not JKD. Regardless, JKD puts the power side forward. The Philly Shell has the weak side forward. And, a standing guard in CMA is correctly called 'JongSao', not 'BaiJong'. You JKD guys are really good at taking from an art what you think works and proceeding to **** it up beyond all recognition.

**Prone** · Posted On: 1/17/2012 4:09pm

Originally Posted by Alex

step 1- be mayweather

not sure about step 2

^This actually.

**td82394** · Posted On: 1/17/2012 5:58pm

Use what works for you. That being said, I like the philly shell, because you only need one hand and your shoulder to block. The sideways stance is good for quick movement in and out. In kickboxing, it's harder to make work because you can't check leg kicks quite as well, but you can move out of the way, or even better, you can move in and stuff the kick before it develops full power and counter. In MMA, you can stuff the double from there, in fact, it's easier, because he's already eating your hips. But singles become harder to defend.