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  1. WayOfLife is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2011 8:32pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Why Did Choi Hong Hi Create the ITF?

    If this question has been asked already, moderationown this thread. If not, here it is: Why did General Choi Hong Hi leave the Korean Taekwondo Association, which he helped found, to create his own separate organization?
  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 10:24am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mmmmm...it has been a while since I have had a fresh can of worms opened for me. :)

    You will get two sides to this issue. The ITF side and the KKW side. The following is taken from Modern History or Taekwondo, which is about as close to the KKW side as you will find.
    Quote Originally Posted by Modern History of Taekwondo
    PARK Jong Tae, who was the 2nd president of the Korea Taesoodo Association, was unable to use his authority as President. Instead, LEE Chong Woo and UHM Woon Kyu handled the internal affairs of the Taekwondo organization. Around this time, CHOI Hong Hi returned to Korea after completing his tenure as ROK Ambassador to Malaysia. CHOI Hong Hi's return came as a shock to LEE Chong Woo, UHM Woon Kyu and LEE Nam Suk, the leaders of the Korea Taesoodo Association. CHOI Hong Hi complained because the name of the art had been changed from Taekwondo to Taesoodo. This meant that the name of the art would become a big issue again between CHOI Hong Hi and the three leaders. CHOI Hong Hi put much effort in the sports (Che Yuk) community and also Taekwondo so he could become the 3rd President of the Korea Taesoodo Association in January 1965. The Moo Duk Kwan had the most trouble internally with respect to the unification efforts. The Jidokwan also had internal conflicts, so much so that YOON Kwe Byung and LEE Chong Woo almost separated, but it was not as serious as in the Moo Duk Kwan. The reason why the Moo Duk Kwan had so much trouble was because HWANG Kee was concentrating solely on his own Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. On March 18, 1965, there was a Unification Declaration Ceremony held at the Korea Amateur Sports Association auditorium. Moo Duk Kwan's HWANG Kee was there and agreed to the Declaration at the time.

    However, the very next day, HWANG Kee stated that the Unification Declaration was invalid.
    Moo Duk Kwan's HONG Chong Soo, who advised HWANG Kee for 36 hours straight on this issue, stated: "The day after the Unification Declaration Ceremony was held, HWANG Kee told me that the Declaration was invalid. I could not understand HWANG Kee and told him 'Why do you say that? You are one of the most famous martial artists in the country and you should not say that the Unification Declaration is invalid.' I advised him a lot to try and get him to change his position. Finally, he asked me to call CHOI Hong Hi for him. When I gave HWANG Kee the telephone, he told CHOI Hong Hi that the Declaration was invalid and he hung up the telephone before CHOI Hong Hi could respond." The relationship between HWANG Kee and CHOI Hong Hi was bad. HWANG Kee objected to CHOI Hong Hi being the president of the Korea Taesoodo Association because he said the art and organization would not develop with CHOI Hong Hi in charge. After much discussion and argument back and forth over the issue, CHOI Hong Hi changed the name of the art from Taesoodo to Taekwondo, which led to great hostility from LEE Chong Woo and LEE Nam Suk. CHOI Hong Hi attempted to establish his authoritarian dictator style but he could not continue to lead because no one would follow him. After one year, CHOI Hong Hi was forced to resign the KTA presidency by LEE Chong Woo and UHM Woon Kyu. CHOI Hong Hi begged LEE Chong Woo to allow him to remain as President for six more months, but LEE Chong Woo said no.

    LEE Chong Woo comments on the issue: "CHOI Hong Hi was like an authoritarian dictator so UHM Woon Kyu and I had to kick him out. One morning we went to visit him at his house in Hannamdong (near Yong San) to ask him to resign, but CHOI Hong Hi begged us to allow him to remain as KTA President for six more months. We told him he would have to choose between three things: 'Money', 'Position' or 'Honor'. We told him that if he chose Honor and resigned, we would help him make his own International Taekwon-Do Federation, but we wanted him to resign immediately and get out of the Korea Taekwondo Association." CHOI Hong Hi finally resigned as KTA President because he could not overcome the hostility of the Kwan heads (Kwan Jang) in Taekwondo. In March 1966, the ITF was created at the Choson Hotel with nine participating countries such as West Germany, USA, Turkey, Italy, etc. But because he had too much desire and because of his authoritarian ways, he was forever labeled the "permanent troublemaker" in Taekwondo .
    I do not know ITF's side, perhaps Mst. Weiss can help us with that.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

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  3. 1armedwonder is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 10:21pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I remember correctly from the book Taekwon-Do, compiled by Choi Hong-hi and his associates, they claim that he was exiled from South Korea shortly after taking a tour to North Korea and introducing Taekwondo there. Not much else was said regarding his departure, other than him creating the ITF after being exiled from South Korea while the WTF was established a few years afterwards. I don't know how much of this to believe, and I would quote the book for a more accurate retelling of their side of the story, but I can't seem to find it :(

    I'll get back to this when I can figure out where I put the book. Either way, there are obviously very different accounts surrounding Choi Hong-hi along with the creation of TKD.
  4. WayOfLife is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 10:38pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Indeed those are very different accounts. I'm sure the ITF side would not agree to the claim that Choi Hong Hi was very dictatorial.
    It's interesting the other leaders of the KTA were even willing to help him start the ITF, I would have thought they would have abandoned him completely.
    Miguksaram, I guess they're saying that he simply got tired of the differences and schisms between Kwans? Interesting.
    I'm going to try and find more info on the ITF side.
  5. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2011 9:15am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by WayOfLife View Post
    Indeed those are very different accounts. I'm sure the ITF side would not agree to the claim that Choi Hong Hi was very dictatorial.
    It's interesting the other leaders of the KTA were even willing to help him start the ITF, I would have thought they would have abandoned him completely.
    Miguksaram, I guess they're saying that he simply got tired of the differences and schisms between Kwans? Interesting.
    I'm going to try and find more info on the ITF side.
    You can look at it from a couple of perspectives. One was that they would help him start his own little organization where he can be the king and leave them the hell alone so they can get what they wanted done.

    Perhaps they felt that they did owe him something so they would give him this little morsel of leadership as a way of saying thanks. I really don't know. I would recommend reading the entire document of Modern History of Taekwondo to get a better picture overall. Just the part that I quoted was for a quick reply.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. Earl Weiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2012 6:27pm


     Style: TKD & JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to turn back the clock to the 1950's. Martial arts in SK was fragmented. Different Kwans doing different stuff with all sorts of standards. Along comes somone who is going to develop and impose new standards. Obviously this will be viewed badly by all who have to now learn new stuff and be re graded to see if they make the cut. General Choi was going to require all except the CDK guys be regraded. Obvioulsy most would view this type of thing as overly dictatorial. But, now, if you have a vision to teach and spread a system on a wide scale, (not unlike what Kano or Fuankoshi had done) you need to have a unified standard.

    General Choi writes in his Bio at page 113 "The reason why I founded the ITF was to let the whole world have a chance to learn TKD. To make that dream come true I had to develp international instructors who were able to teach the techniques I had researched." (Abbreviations mine to save space.)

    There is also discussion in the bio about debates with the KTA vis a vis adoption of technical standards and parameters etc. If you view "TKD" as some sort of umbrella term this would seem unneccesary. However if youy view it as a specific system with uniform standards and practices to be taught and spread on a wide scale, then it is essential.

    Forming the ITF meant this issue no longer had to be debated. The mission was to spread a single uniform system which in part minimized some of the hated Japanese influences more readily apparent in prior Kwan systems.

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