Cops & Aikido

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 2:58pm

Meh, some of that stuff works ok. But you have exceptions to every rule. A lot of those techniques are taught as the only acceptable techniques to use in a use of force scenerio. So it is not like they are thinking that they have the real real. It just that they don't have a lot at their disposal.

If you use a technique that is not taught in DT, then you are no longer covered legally. So if you hurt something, you may have a civil suit coming towards you.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 3:23pm

What do you guys think about this lock?

It's fairly widely taught in law enforcement and security, but you never really see it in any kind of competition.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 3:45pm

I've used this one a few times. It works well when the person is not REALLY trying to resist you. If they are REALLY trying to resist, this lock ends up with you getting punched in the face a few times. We were taught a few takedowns from here, but when you are getting punched in the face, you don't usually go for the takedown.

It does hurt a little, but not enought to keep me from hurting you. And if anyone had some wresting, judo, Sambo type training, this lock will result in you on your back with them on top of you.

**captainbirdseye** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 6:20pm

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I've used this one a few times. It works well when the person is not REALLY trying to resist you.

Would you say the majority of restraint techniques taught to LEOs are like this? Apart from seeing Aikido-like wrist locks and come-alongs I'm not that up on these things.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 6:37pm

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I've used this one a few times. It works well when the person is not REALLY trying to resist you. If they are REALLY trying to resist, this lock ends up with you getting punched in the face a few times. We were taught a few takedowns from here, but when you are getting punched in the face, you don't usually go for the takedown.

When I was taught the gooseneck, I asked what you should do if they try to hit you with their other hand. He demonstrated by applying the lock, then when his student would up his fist, he cranked on the wrist so the pain took away his desire to punch. Not a very satisfying answer, in my opinion. I could think of a few better solutions off the top of my head, but it occurred to me that it might be commonly taught to just crank the wrist if they resist. Creates a lose-lose situation.

It does hurt a little, but not enough to keep me from hurting you. And if anyone had some wresting, judo, Sambo type training, this lock will result in you on your back with them on top of you.

Yeah, once the arm's free, they're pretty much already fit in for a throw.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 9:32pm

Originally Posted by captainbirdseye

Would you say the majority of restraint techniques taught to LEOs are like this? Apart from seeing Aikido-like wrist locks and come-alongs I'm not that up on these things.

Yeah, the escort techniques and bent wrist stuff was garbage! I discarded them pretty early on. The takedowns, strikes, chokes, and ground stuff was pretty good, depending on the instructor.

**daishi** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 9:54pm

The technique pictured is commonly known as the gooseneck or basic come along (as mentioned above)....called renkojime in Japanese. The other day I got a submission with it during randori (JJ randori, not aikido randori) as a counter to someone trying to pull his arm out of a jujigatame I was attempting to apply.

I do not like doing it as pictured above. The theory being that having the opponent's elbow on your sternum/tummy is a pretty unstable platform and his elbow pops out when opponent tries to get out. We usually have the opponent's arm orientated vertically, tight against and in between your chest with your inside arm cradling the opponent's arm. Typically it leads to a takedown for DT.

To get an actual submission you really have to isolate the arm to prevent movement.

Its a hurty, but its not really a pin. We usually only call things pins of it actually pins them to something so they can't move. The idea being that pain-reliant control techniques are not reliable.

**daishi** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 10:07pm

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

I can't decide if it's funny or sad that in Japan (spiritual homeland of aikido, karate, etc.) the police are encouraged to participate in Judo, while here in America (spiritual homeland of wrestling, boxing, and mixed martial arts) the head honchos think Steven Seagal is someone to emulate.

Which Dan rank in aikido qualifies me to run my own Russian sex slave operation?

In my experience, most police really don't focus on these things. Very similar to the military, its a check in the box that most don't take seriously. That being said, I did assist teaching at a DT organization and we had positive feed back from practical application.

Yoshinkan aikido has a robust history in Japanese military, police, and other industry. Most famously is their program to train the Tokyo Riot Police, as described in the book Angry Whit Pajamas and discussed in the Bullshido thread "Tokyo Police Academy" started by Mark Tripp in 2009. Though, as Tripp says, the idea was as much to teach police officers 'warrior spirit' and tenacity as it was to train technique.

As you see daily on this website, its tough to discern quality martial arts or DT instruction. Most police, military, or whatever, looking into these types of programs don't have the capability to make the distinction and go with the big name, or the most 'legit' looking company. Good marketing begets good business more times than poor marketing and good instruction. ....Hence the comment about people thinking highly of Seagal.

**MovableBookLady** · Posted On: 1/12/2012 11:37pm

It's sort of baffling to me that officers are not required to be more highly trained in combat techniques, and that it isn't an ongoing process. After all, it's to their own benefit, isn't it?

Even though, as daishi says, it's tough to discern quality instruction, would you say that almost anything would be better than nothing in an effort to provide officers with something useful to use on the streets?

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 1/13/2012 8:01am

Originally Posted by MovableBookLady

It's sort of baffling to me that officers are not required to be more highly trained in combat techniques, and that it isn't an ongoing process. After all, it's to their own benefit, isn't it?

Even though, as daishi says, it's tough to discern quality instruction, would you say that almost anything would be better than nothing in an effort to provide officers with something useful to use on the streets?

Well, if you would say that anything is better than nothing, then you would be content with what they get now.

What is so baffling? How would you propose training a bunch of cops on different shifts, when you have a limited budget, and no instructors in the area?