Stick=empty hand

[Eskrimador]

Now I'll explain ONE MORE TIME so that you can get what I mean because there seems to be a very large disconnect in understanding here. When I say "Blue Print" I don't mean " This is exactly what every style does ". When I say " Blue Print " I mean that there are only SO MANY WAYS that you can swing one stick or two sticks etc and that you can reach every angle of attack from the sinawali drill. It doesn't matter if your style uses it or not. That's what the drill is for. It helps you to understand how to get into everything. If you don't understand what I'm saying this time, I'm done.

[Permalost]

Do you think that the sinawali drill is extremely important because it is a foundation from which you can throw any attack or block with any weapons?

ANY weapon? Of course not.

[Permalost]

most likely, that manual is derived from italian sabre methods. do you have a link to the thread on the vikingsword forum where it was discussed?

It's mostly pics of Filipino weapons in a Barcelona museum:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12569

It was linked in a discussion of Luzon based FMA on The Bladed Hand FB group.

[Diesel_tke]

if you want to be literal about applying the motions, yes. like chilli_pepper said earlier, though, the ideas have to be kept abstract in order to be adapted.

Ok, so rather than me looking at literal interpretations of the moves, I should just worry about the general motions and forms and then apply them wherever an appropriate situation would allow?

To me it sounds a lot the Tai Chi forms and applications that I currently practice. Which is not a bad thing, but I have personally found that kickboxing was a lot quicker in teaching me how to be a competent striker than generalized form applications was.

[jspeedy]

I missed out on mentioning this earlier when you posted this, although I've mentioned this much already, I'm going to put more emphasis on it now because it is of special importance to this particular discussion.

Sinawali is not just a drill. It's the entire blue print for how FMA works. It is MY opinion that Sinawali is hands down one of the most important things you can practice in any form of FMA stick/sword/knife fighting simply because each movement means something, as does each chamber of the stick/swords/knife(knives).

Angle 1 is a downward slice from the right shoulder and it is immediately chambered up on the shoulder; protecting the neck. That same movement is your umbrella/roof block which EASILY turns into your Dog Brother's style bolo uppercut. That's just one very short example and I'm sure all of you know how a sinawali drill works, but that's the foundation of this topic, I think.

In empty hand, just as in stick or knife, your attack is automatically supposed to turn into your defense, your second strike can be just as destructive depending on circumstance and in a flash, the first strike you threw automatically becomes your counter attack. It would seem that based on the circumstance, the principle of "block, check, counter" can generate almost any combination of attacks and defenses based on the weapons in play or lack thereof.

This principle is the blue print for how single stick can take on double stick and win, vice versa and how all other weapons have the potential to win or lose against each other. It's not just a series of strikes and chambers.

That's just my view, though. I'm wondering if anyone agrees.

I don't know anything about sinawali at all so I find it hard to believe it is the blueprint for all FMA. My system is solely a single stick system, although we do sometimes do "heaven" as a warm up and experiment with double stick to switch things up. I think I can relate to what you are saying though....maybe. If you are saying that the movements that make up sinawali can be found in many FMA systems I think I can agree to that. Even with single stick the empty hand is heavily emphasized to lift, clear, jam, block, ect.

Eskrimador keep in mind that you are still new here (i actually lifted this thread from his newbietown intro for those who didn't follow) don't get frustrated by people calling you out on generalizations. Eventually you will learn not to make arguments based on generalizations and hearsay. If you want to make a point check your facts first. Many of us here enjoy being pedantic and calling people on there unchecked statements. Probably because many of us have heard the same things spewed over and over at various martial arts schools throughout years of training. Out of respect many of us don't call out these guys in person at their own school, but here on the internet it's a different story.

Back to the OP. So far I gather that FMA weapons movements can be used as a framework for empty hand techniques. However, you must train the movements empty hand to actually be able to use them. Simply, you can't expect to just drop the stick and perform empty hand well without training it. If everyone agrees to this I still have another question: If you haven't trained striking to begin with and take a weapons art then use that art to develop empty hand strikes how do you know you are striking properly? You've never trained striking specifically to begin with. I've hit many a heavybag and focus mitt but I've never trained a specific striking art so I don't consider myself a "striker". I feel I can throw a better strike than an untrained person or even your average TKD krotty(mcdojo) BB but compared to a boxer with 6 months of training I'm sure I'd be outclassed. How many FMA practitioners who train empty hand have ever trained striking specifically? Perhaps I'm underestimating myself or maybe it's just where i've trained, but I feel like I can use FMA strikes to develop a striking game that is better than nothing at all. How many empty hand FMA-ers can hold their weight with a boxer or kickboxer?

[Permalost]

How many FMA practitioners who train empty hand have ever trained striking specifically? Perhaps I'm underestimating myself or maybe it's just where i've trained, but I feel like I can use FMA strikes to develop a striking game that is better than nothing at all. How many empty hand FMA-ers can hold their weight with a boxer or kickboxer?

Well, prior to FMA I had good success in tournament sparring divisions, and mediocre performance in san da and pankration, and have been tooled by a boxing coach and a muay thai coach. So, not a great striker but I've got a fair amount of experience. I feel like the striking I've learned in FMA has improved my striking overall, and have gotten a sense of this by applying what I've learned in sparring against others. My main outside training partner is a stout kung fu guy. I think the panuntukan training has been more applicable than the kuntao.

Now, some people might say this makes me a bad eskrimador or something, but I spar unarmed a good deal different than with a weapon. With a stick or knife I usually use a right lead, but without one I prefer to use a conventional boxing stance.

[Chili Pepper]

Ok, so rather than me looking at literal interpretations of the moves, I should just worry about the general motions and forms and then apply them wherever an appropriate situation would allow?

Pretty much, yeah. In Guro Inosanto's old book on FMA, starting on page 130, he has a series of pics showing a variety of strikes all coming in on Angle #1 - a staff, a stick, a barong, a dagger, an overhand punch, a nunchaku, a staff (swinging backhanded), a palm strike, knife hand, hammer fist, dagger in icepick grip, backfist, and hammerfist swinging backhanded.

The point is, they're all coming in through that same zone, and there are going to be many commonalities to dealing with a strike coming in through that zone. Rather than worry about "this is a nunchaku technique" or "this is a sword technique", focus on the elements that make them the same, to streamline your training. In every one of the strikes mentioned above, you could use the exact same footwork (modified for range, as I mentioned in an earlier comment upthread).

(oh, and in reply to Eskrimador regarding sinawali being the blueprint of FMA, I disagree)

[Chili Pepper]

How many FMA practitioners who train empty hand have ever trained striking specifically? Perhaps I'm underestimating myself or maybe it's just where i've trained, but I feel like I can use FMA strikes to develop a striking game that is better than nothing at all. How many empty hand FMA-ers can hold their weight with a boxer or kickboxer?

I would say the problem is that the various FMA cover wider territory than some other arts. When I teach, I focus on single stick, single knife, and empty hands, but that's still a lot of ground to cover. Double stick, espada y daga, etc. show up too, but more rarely.

We don't tend to be specialists - can't outgrapple the grapplers, can't outbox the boxers - but instead sample everything.

[tim_stl]

It was linked in a discussion of Luzon based FMA on The Bladed Hand FB group.

thanks. i should pay more attention to that group - i totally missed the discussion.

[tim_stl]

Ok, so rather than me looking at literal interpretations of the moves, I should just worry about the general motions and forms and then apply them wherever an appropriate situation would allow?

again, it depends on the style. some are more literal, some are abstract, and some just use another art altogether. the goal in translating weapons work to empty-hand is to not have to learn a new way to fight just because neither you nor your opponent(s) have a weapon. it's not to be the best at empty-hand fighting, it's to be good enough to survive.


tim