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  1. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 4:32pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post
    Sinawali is not just a drill. It's the entire blue print for how FMA works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post
    just be aware that there are over 7,000 styles of Arnis
    how many styles of arnis had you seen, let alone studied, before coming to the conclusion that sinawali is the blueprint for how fma works?
  2. Eskrimador is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 4:47pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not being THAT general, if you can believe it. Just the same as Kali is a general term for stick fighting or whatever the hell it is in the states... same thing I'm doing. I'm not being terribly specific, but what I AM talking about what I do PERSONALLY. I'm not going to knit pick about styles, but Sinawali is the easiest example of empty = weapon. Should I say American Filipino Martial Arts that ALL use sinawali drills? Should I go get out an encyclopedia of FMA styles and schools that incorporate Sinawali into their training? Do I need to start calling up teachers and asking how many of them learned Sinawali? How about we start holding interviews?

    Seriously though, how many different slices and jabs and blocks are you going to get with just two arms that only bend in certain ways, all have the same joints and general anatomical structure? There are only so many ways you can swing a stick or poke someone with it and still actually hurt them. That's probably WHY sinawali exists in the first place. If styles of FMA are anything like Silat, the differences between styles range from very small to very large.

    That's all it really boils down to, though. The idea is to naturally flow into the next move, isn't it? That's what Sinawali is for. That's the guiding principle behind it seems like most FMA styles if you want to get technical. That's why you'll find flow drills all over the place.

    So maybe I'm right. :I

    Just for the record, **** that knit picking. If you know what a sinawali drill is, I want your opinion. DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE, SIR? HOW CLOSELY HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE DRILL? I WANT TO TALK ABOUT TECHNICAL ASPECTS, SO PLEASE, CAN WE DO THAT NOW? Please? C'mon. :I
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 4:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, so when applying FMA stick principles to empty hand. Are you saying that each angle relates to a specific strike or specific response to a strike? Using your angle 1 example. If I take that stick swing and adapt it to an empty hand strike, to use it literally it would seem to me that it is going to be a hammer fist strike to the temple or neck area. Is that correct? If the wrist were turned over a little bit, it becomes an over hand right. Is this how you change the attack angles into empty hand techniques?

    Then the opposit angle along that same line ( / ) you would use as a back fist?
    Combatives training log.

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  4. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:11pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post
    Just for the record, **** that knit picking. If you know what a sinawali drill is, I want your opinion. DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE, SIR? HOW CLOSELY HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE DRILL?
    how closely have i looked at sinawali? i've been training it for the past fifteen years, teaching it for most of that time, studied double-stick styles from pampanga and pangasinan where it originated, along with the cinco teros styles that were developed with and around it, and have taught people who've done the drills for decades how to understand that sinawali isn't just a drill, but an integral part of the cinco teros styles that birthed it.

    and yes, i fucking disagree with you.

    now, your turn - how closely have you looked at "the drill?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post
    I WANT TO TALK ABOUT TECHNICAL ASPECTS, SO PLEASE, CAN WE DO THAT NOW? Please? C'mon. :I
    i'd love to talk about technical aspects. i'm too busy chasing down your sweeping generalizations that you can't seem to avoid making and then backpedaling on. you said that sinawali is the blueprint for fma, and you want to know if we agree; then, you say that you weren't talking about fma in general, just your fma personally. so what you really want to know is whether we agree that sinawali is the blueprint for your personal fma? that question is so ridiculous that it's obvious that it's not what you meant. if you want to get technical, cut the generalizations and dime-store history lessons and be specific.
  5. Eskrimador is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The angle 1 attack in empty hand from what I've seen, is capable of doing many things. In the most literal sense you get something like this: A punch thrown from your right side might land, BUT just the same as you would bring your stick back to your opposite shoulder, you do the same with your hand and you use an open palmed block to stop that attack from touching you. This is where your foot work REALLY comes in hand. If you're like me, your hand isn't fast enough to strike and block, so you have to move out of the way a little to give yourself time.

    What I see the angle one strike used for most often in empty hand is stopping the incoming punch by meeting it, and then the chamber motion gives you A LOT to play with. You can guide the arm over away from you after you've met it, you can grab it and manipulate it into a better position etc.

    Your second strike in sinawali comes from UNDERNEATH your right hand. So after you've swung your slash and you've bought your hand back up, the second slash comes out from your rib area. To translate that into open hand, you may end up with something like this:

    After you've made the initial punch/block, your other hand comes in UNDER your striking hand to either put a strike elsewhere, do damage to the limb while you have it in your reach, or simply hold it where it is so that it can't do anything else. With that last part, think "wet towel". It doesn't take a huge amount of power to do your checks.

    Now remember where your primary striking hand is. It's probably up by your shoulder defending your face, or moved more toward your middle. This how we tend to make our openings. Because you've defended and in doing so cocked your striking had back in the process, your retaliation should be immediate. This is how we go on until we get in. Remember your foot work. If your counter strike is blocked, guess where your left hand is now that your right hand isn't hovering over it and it's over THEIR striking arm. The opening for the attack is still there.

    Watch closely. This is your sinawali drill.



    Now look again. This is your hubud drill. If you want to skip ahead, start at 0:53. Notice the similarity in where his hands are going as compared to any heaven, standard or earth sinawali drill.




    I hope the visual aids help.
  6. Eskrimador is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't back pedal at all, friend. I was asking you if you agreed on the importance of the sinawali drill. Remember that you were the one who took that statement out of context. Maybe my wording isn't so great sometimes. Let me ask the same question a second time. " Do you think that the sinawali drill is extremely important because it is a foundation from which you can throw any attack or block with any weapons? " is that clear enough for you, tim? I'm not giving you anything to chase, you're just pulling stuff out of nothing.
  7. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:17pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Ok, so when applying FMA stick principles to empty hand. Are you saying that each angle relates to a specific strike or specific response to a strike? Using your angle 1 example. If I take that stick swing and adapt it to an empty hand strike, to use it literally it would seem to me that it is going to be a hammer fist strike to the temple or neck area. Is that correct? If the wrist were turned over a little bit, it becomes an over hand right. Is this how you change the attack angles into empty hand techniques?

    Then the opposit angle along that same line ( / ) you would use as a back fist?
    if you want to be literal about applying the motions, yes. like chilli_pepper said earlier, though, the ideas have to be kept abstract in order to be adapted.
  8. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:21pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post
    Let me ask the same question a second time. " Do you think that the sinawali drill is extremely important because it is a foundation from which you can throw any attack or block with any weapons? " is that clear enough for you, tim? I'm not giving you anything to chase, you're just pulling stuff out of nothing.
    like i just said, i disagree with you. no, i do not think that the sinawali drill is a foundation from which you can throw any attack or block with any weapon. i don't think that any drill is a foundation from which you can throw any attack or block with any weapon.

    now, are you going to answer my question?
  9. Basagulero is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:23pm


     Style: Lightning Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskrimador View Post

    Sinawali is not just a drill. It's the entire blue print for how FMA works. It is MY opinion that Sinawali is hands down one of the most important things you can practice in any form of FMA stick/sword/knife fighting simply because each movement means something, as does each chamber of the stick/swords/knife(knives).

    Angle 1 is a downward slice from the right shoulder and it is immediately chambered up on the shoulder; protecting the neck. That same movement is your umbrella/roof block which EASILY turns into your Dog Brother's style bolo uppercut. That's just one very short example and I'm sure all of you know how a sinawali drill works, but that's the foundation of this topic, I think.

    In empty hand, just as in stick or knife, your attack is automatically supposed to turn into your defense, your second strike can be just as destructive depending on circumstance and in a flash, the first strike you threw automatically becomes your counter attack. It would seem that based on the circumstance, the principle of "block, check, counter" can generate almost any combination of attacks and defenses based on the weapons in play or lack thereof.

    This principle is the blue print for how single stick can take on double stick and win, vice versa and how all other weapons have the potential to win or lose against each other. It's not just a series of strikes and chambers.

    That's just my view, though. I'm wondering if anyone agrees.
    The system I practice does not have sinawali where we trade counter for counter drills, nor do we have a hubud drill where we study flow and trade off. Does this mean we do not follow the structure of an FMA?

    What is the name of the style/styles you practice?
  10. Eskrimador is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 5:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're never wrong unless you get hit. Or die. Anyway, you'll have to excuse me for not responding to you in full. This arguing is boring, and at this point, it almost seems more beneficial to just start the topic a second time so that we can do this right. Again, and I've said this before, it's a general style. South East Asian Combatives. It's a mixture of various forms.

    Beside that, I never said that anyone was wrong. I just posed a question.
    Last edited by Eskrimador; 12/14/2011 5:49pm at .
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