Stick=empty hand

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 2:02am

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

does the strike origionate from the hip? Also is your shoulder raised up like a boxing punch with the chin down?

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In the FMA school I train striking is done with the hips. My style is primarily a single stick style and there is a focus on striking power. Although, it is said within my org the stick is a simulation of the blade there is no direct blade work included in the curriculum but some guys train the stick movements with blades the same with empty hand. I haven't trained anywhere else so I can't say if all other schools use hip motion or not for stick strikes. But some systems perhaps mainly the blade based ones appear to use more of a slashing strike with the stick where the power comes from whipping the arm and less emphasis on hip motion.

As for shoulder and neck position the Dog Bros use a stance similar to what I'm familiar with, I can't quite remember but I think they call it the false lead maybe? It's like a modified boxing stance, where the torso is torqued or loaded up with the left shoulder leading and the right shoulder and stick hand cocked back in a ready position. With this stance the right leg is forward but the left shoulder leads, this gives the stick fighter more hip rotation for each strike. I think i've seen Bas Rutten describe the same stance in some articles i've read. As you incorporate footwork and maintain this loaded up stance you get the triangular footwork some FMA systems are known for.

Here's a wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_punch) about the Bolo Punch made famous by Cefernio Garcia. Garcia was a pro Filipino boxer and supposedly developed the punch from a bolo knife technique used to cut sugarcane. I've seen a youtube vid with old footage explaining Garcia'bolo punch but I can't find it right now.

**escrimador6** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 3:12am

Originally Posted by St. Sleaze

Here's a wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_punch) about the Bolo Punch made famous by Cefernio Garcia. Garcia was a pro Filipino boxer and supposedly developed the punch from a bolo knife technique used to cut sugarcane. I've seen a youtube vid with old footage explaining Garcia'bolo punch but I can't find it right now.

St. Sleaze brings up an excellent point about the bolo punch and it's connection to Filipino farmers using Bolos to cut sugar cane. This video can explain it better than I can. Plus, it's Dog Brothers, so you know it's good stuff

http://youtu.be/PAiy237tHZQ

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 8:41am

Originally Posted by St. Sleaze

In the FMA school I train striking is done with the hips. My style is primarily a single stick style and there is a focus on striking power. Although, it is said within my org the stick is a simulation of the blade there is no direct blade work included in the curriculum but some guys train the stick movements with blades the same with empty hand. I haven't trained anywhere else so I can't say if all other schools use hip motion or not for stick strikes. But some systems perhaps mainly the blade based ones appear to use more of a slashing strike with the stick where the power comes from whipping the arm and less emphasis on hip motion.

As for shoulder and neck position the Dog Bros use a stance similar to what I'm familiar with, I can't quite remember but I think they call it the false lead maybe? It's like a modified boxing stance, where the torso is torqued or loaded up with the left shoulder leading and the right shoulder and stick hand cocked back in a ready position. With this stance the right leg is forward but the left shoulder leads, this gives the stick fighter more hip rotation for each strike. I think i've seen Bas Rutten describe the same stance in some articles i've read. As you incorporate footwork and maintain this loaded up stance you get the triangular footwork some FMA systems are known for.

Here's a wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_punch) about the Bolo Punch made famous by Cefernio Garcia. Garcia was a pro Filipino boxer and supposedly developed the punch from a bolo knife technique used to cut sugarcane. I've seen a youtube vid with old footage explaining Garcia'bolo punch but I can't find it right now.

Oh yeah, I'm familiar with the Bolo punch. I've seen that Dog brothers video of it too. I haven't seen it in a while though!

I have seen some videos of them using the false lead, and I like that. It makes a lot of sence to me. When throwing punches, a lot of times the jab is weak but strength builds through combinations of jab, cross, hook... As the combinations go on, the torque of the body generates more power. So this false lead allows you to start as if you are perpetually in the second sequence of combination. That allows you start out with more power than if the left shoulder were back already.

And that would translate pretty well to striking.

Here is another question, when you transition from the stick to empty hand, do you stop and talk about proper punching mechanics and form, or just throw punches the same way you have been doing sticks? Specifically, is any attention pointed out about body position when throwing punches that is different than when you swing a stick?

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 10:29am

A stick is not a bolo is not a knife is not a fist. The principles remain the same, and should be kept in that nice abstract phase where they can be applied across the board. Hell, we've got a couple angles that are idiotic outside of weapons work.

What's the difference between, for example, stepping out on a defensive triangle to avoid a stick, and slipping a punch? Scale. The length and range of a stick changes the size of the movement, but it's the same movement, conceptually.

Now, having said that, unless one actually practices slipping a punch, no amount of defensive triangle practice will help in that situation. It has to be relevant to the scale, and the length of weapons involved. I haven't heard it spouted in a while, but I remember the krotty guys talking about how "weapons are just an extension of the empty hand" and figuring that they magically knew how to use weapons. Those willing to actually try were quickly disillusioned.

We try and practice drills using as many different weapons as possible - it reinforces the lessons, I think, and teaches new ones. Hubud, for instance: it's hard to find videos on youtube where it's done with weapons (and then, it is usually just the daga), but doing it with sticks is an excellent lesson on stick-management (not getting your stick trapped by your own arm, or whacking yourself in the face)

**Permalost** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 11:41am

Originally Posted by Chili Pepper

Now, having said that, unless one actually practices slipping a punch, no amount of defensive triangle practice will help in that situation. It has to be relevant to the scale, and the length of weapons involved. I haven't heard it spouted in a while, but I remember the krotty guys talking about how "weapons are just an extension of the empty hand" and figuring that they magically knew how to use weapons. Those willing to actually try were quickly disillusioned.

This is an excellent counterpoint.

**tim_stl** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 11:46am

Originally Posted by Eskrimador

An opponent who fights only with his stick isn't nearly as dangerous as an opponent who is willing to use his check hand, and this is the entire concept behind the sinawali drill:

not at all; that is a very limited understanding of sinawali.

Originally Posted by Eskrimador

" This is a style created to battle the Japanese in the trenches of WW2 ". The Samurai cannot draw a long sword in a tight trench, which was the point of said trenches being dug

wait- you're telling us that not only did soldiers in the philippines dig trenches to protect themselves from samurai, but that they also developed a fighting style to use against samurai in those trenches? i'd be very interested to know what style that was, and what the source is for the purpose of trenches in the philippines.

Originally Posted by Permalost

I'll also parrot that stickfighting has helped my footwork. My CLF background taught me to have low, wide stances, and for stick (and knife) fighting, that's not really acceptable.

that's not true. my style of arnis uses low, wide stances, and uses them quite effectively.

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

I was a little worried that you were going to say that your striking techniques would end up being like the chun. Is this normal for most FMA stick application?

it's normal when the instructor or practitioner doesn't know how to fight with a stick in the first place.

sadly, most practitioners and instructors of fma have no idea how to fight. if you don't look the same in sparring as you do in training, either you don't understand your training, or your training is crap. too many fma instructors only understand how to do drills and make up empty-hand applications. unfortunately, they're also the most vocal.

tim

**Ignorami** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 11:57am

In my kali class, the weapon and empty hand elements are taught and practiced very differently.

For a start, almost all of our weapon work is done from a right lead. All our empty hand is taught and practiced from a left lead. Some of the footwork is the same when moving about I guess, but the whole thing feels so different as to be essentially unrelated.

I don't think my instructor is particularly experienced as FMA goes (though obviously much more so than myself), and his primary art is Muay Thai, so how much 'FMA' empty hand I'm really getting taught is anyones guess.

Al of this refers to empty vs empty. When it's empty hand vs weapon, it all falls back into similar style.

(I should point out that I am a mere 18 months into FMA, so The amount of anything I'm being taught is pretty superficial. Also, we don't spar in the FMA class which means I'm having to look elsewhere to get any real understanding of actual application.)

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 11:59am

It's true. All of the movements are the same BUT you still have to practice no matter what weapon, or lack thereof, you employ. They are not exactly the same because adjustments must be made in order to control sticks or a knife. Sticks and knives don't grasp. You almost cannot use a knife to manipulate joints, but a stick can enhance joint manipulation in some cases. I'd also like to point out that a hubud drill done with sticks is basically two people doing a sinawali drill at each other (unless you're talking about the wheel drill). Block, check, counter. First strike, second strike, third strike. That's why every variation of sinawali has three strikes on either side. When you happen to do a hubud drill (at least from what I know), you stop the hand, check the hand (hold rest your other hand on it to prevent it from striking back) and then you strike back.

**Chili Pepper** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 12:02pm

Originally Posted by Ignorami

For a start, almost all of our weapon work is done from a right lead. All our empty hand is taught and practiced from a left lead. Some of the footwork is the same when moving about I guess, but the whole thing feels so different as to be essentially unrelated.

I don't know at what point I realized it, but somewhere along the line, I became a southpaw when it comes to empty hands. Makes sense though: with a stick or knife I lead with my right (typically) to take advantage of added reach, etc., and if that's what I'm comfortable with ...

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/14/2011 12:04pm

Originally Posted by Eskrimador

An opponent who fights only with his stick isn't nearly as dangerous as an opponent who is willing to use his check hand, and this is the entire concept behind the sinawali drill:
not at all; that is a very limited understanding of sinawali.

I just explained that in my last post up there. Having two sticks doesn't mean attack attack attack all the time. Being unable to see that there's an almost simultaneous attack AND defense is a limited understanding of sinawali.

I also used the wrong wording up there. I know already that this is how the Philipinos beat the spanish for like 300 years, and that's mostly because they used the check in the middle to stop them from retaliating with their swords. That's also a testament to why the check hand is so important, IF you practice and can fit it in between strikes, it will be one of the best things that ever happened to your stick fighting.

If you didn't know already, Japanese soldiers STILL carried katanas into battle during World War 2. The reason for trenches was to counter act the much longer range of the katana in comparison to the machetes and knives that the philipinos had. A narrow trench is the wrong place to draw a long sword.