Stick=empty hand

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 2:11pm

This thread started in Eskrimador's newbietown intro thread: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=113541&page=1.

The relevant quotes are copied below for you lazys. In a nutshell, do you think empty hand=weapon=ect? Why or why not?

Eskrimador:
We do train with weapons. I just like empty hand best, but it should be said that Empty Hand = Single Stick = Double Stick = Knife = Sword. Anything you can do with a weapon you can do without a weapon. It's just a matter of adaptation of principals. Sorry if I was too vague before. In any case, I just find it a lot more practical to have hand to hand combat down pat because I'm probably never going to have a sword or my sticks out on the street.

Diessel_tke:
Ah! I understand what you are saying. This is the same stick vs empty hand idea that some of the stick people I have trained with believe. The current guy who is teaching me is a little different, but I have trained at my brother's school a few times and he has the same ideas.

Could possibly be a good thread to open up further discussion, because I am curious about everyone's training and aplication of these ideas vs my own experiences.

Either way, welcome to the forum Eskrimador!

St Sleaze:
It might be best like Diesel said to start a thread on the stick=empty hand debate, I'll look into it later and see if one already exists.

For now I'll just throw in my two cents. IMO stick techniques with some modification of principles can translate to empty hand or knife but I don't think it is the best way to do it. If you want to be adept at empty hand train an art that specializes in empty hand just like you'd do with grappling.

One of my FMA training partners and the highest ranked in my local group ascribes to the stick=empty hand group of thought. However, he approaches empty hand with the assumption that an attacker may have an unseen weapon. To me it seems the most efficient way to block a regular punch is much more direct and simple than how you would block a "punch" that could be holding a knife. I think it would be much more difficult and therefore less efficient to treat every punch as a possible knife attack.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 2:50pm

Hey, good thread topic!!

Yeah, I have seen/heard/read some theories about this. From what I understand, some people in the FMA community believe that the stick is just an extension of the arm. So that you can start training with the stick and then transition to emptyhand with basically no real training difference other than adapting to the range difference.

When I've seen it applied it looks a lot like systema or wing chun type arm traping, redirecting, and striking. I was shown a drill once where the heaven 6(not sure if this is the normal name or not) form was used but the sticks were put down and the form was done the exact same way. The only difference was the hands were making contact rather than sticks.

So I'm wondering if that is the normal application of the stick=empty idea.

Personally in my kickboxing training that I have done, striking is way different that the way I have been learning sticks. Blocking being one of the biggest differences. I do blocking in a less is more type aproach. Covering and slipping is done in general terms. For example if someone is throwing a right cross, overhead cross, or even a sloppy hook, the defence is just covering with the left hand up and also possibly trying to get inside the strike or using footwork to move away.

The strike would not be met with a block that is specific to that strike. Since it takes longer to register what strike is coming in, identifying the proper responce, and then executing it quickly.

So, I'm wondering if the way you train stick=empty is similar or different.

**Pharabus** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 3:13pm

I have done Heaven 6 empty hand and with knife, one of the main things we are taught is that sword, stick, knife and empty hand principles are the same (not to say there are not modifications, redunda for instance is firmly in the realm of stick) but the concepts of strike angles and rhythms are interchangeable

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 3:59pm

I think the stick to knife transition is more realistic than stick to empty hand. Like diesel said a lot of what i've seen looks very trapping range oriented, which I think is unrealistic for empty hand. I agree that some stick aspects of stick can carry over to empty hand better than others mainly strikes and angles of attack but blocking is a different story.

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:13pm

In regards to the Heaven 6: That's one version of a very common drill called 'Sinawali'. "Heaven" refers to strikes oriented toward the head and midsection. Standard Sinawali is a combination of high and low strikes and "Earth" is all low strikes. The idea that stick/double stick and transition over into empty hand is fairly simple IF you remember one very important concept: The check hand.

In fighting with a single stick, the check hand is a lot more visible. If you're right handed, that's where your stick is. Your left hand is usually somewhere behind the that stick, often tucked in tightly against the chest. An opponent who fights only with his stick isn't nearly as dangerous as an opponent who is willing to use his check hand, and this is the entire concept behind the sinawali drill: The first strike, while aimed at your enemy is almost always blocked and a moment later, your check hand comes from BENEATH your striking hand almost simultaneously, and it simply covers your enemies arm to disable him long enough for your to bring your stick back into the open area where he cannot defend (because his hand is being held out of the way for a split second) and kill him.

In a double stick form, the check hand is translated over to the left stick. If you've ever done a sinawali drill, you'll notice that arm chambers underneath the other. When the weapon is tapped out of the way, that chambered hand brings around your stick/sword in that same moment to attack your opponent's hand so that he loses his weapon, and to push his hand down so that again, your other weapon can continue right into a vital target like the neck or the face etc.

The same applies to the knife and the same applies to the empty hand, although there are several intricacies that one might not expect to encounter when employing no weapon, like wrist grabs, gunts (arm destruction), blows that suddenly end up on the inside, joint locks, and just about any other move that one can think of.

**mojo23** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:15pm

I got this a lot when doing Arnis but not so much when doing PTK. It's true to an extent- the movements for throwing a jab in MT and throwing a #1 strike in Arnis are nearly identical (although there's more wrist action with the stick) but when you do slashing type strikes such as in PTK or cut-throughs in Arnis (not sure if those are officially part of the style) then it's nothing like throwing a punch.

What does NOT change though, are the angles and the footwork. In fact, I've found that some of my Kali footwork has helped me out in MT.

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 4:20pm

That's about the shortest example I have, and keep in mind that your 'check hand/live hand' or whatever else you chose to call it, is almost never static: that is, "never focus on holding something out of the way longer than you need to". Aside, it's all too easy to use the left hand in striking and the right hand in defense to reverse everything. I should also mention that while I used the word "block" at one point, we never truly block, not in my experience at least. It doesn't take an amazingly solid block to stop a punch, but instead we like to employ a brief "stop" so to speak, basically just pausing the attack with a stiff touch, but never really slowing down, and the same applies to stick fighting. I can't tell you how many times over extending on the block has gotten me into trouble.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 5:01pm

Originally Posted by mojo23

I got this a lot when doing Arnis but not so much when doing PTK. It's true to an extent- the movements for throwing a jab in MT and throwing a #1 strike in Arnis are nearly identical (although there's more wrist action with the stick) but when you do slashing type strikes such as in PTK or cut-throughs in Arnis (not sure if those are officially part of the style) then it's nothing like throwing a punch.

What does NOT change though, are the angles and the footwork. In fact, I've found that some of my Kali footwork has helped me out in MT.

Yes, this has been my favorite cary over. My footwork has been getting a lot better with my kickboxing. I've also been forced to change the way I move, which is a good thing!

Originally Posted by Eskrimador

That's about the shortest example I have, and keep in mind that your 'check hand/live hand' or whatever else you chose to call it, is almost never static: that is, "never focus on holding something out of the way longer than you need to". Aside, it's all too easy to use the left hand in striking and the right hand in defense to reverse everything. I should also mention that while I used the word "block" at one point, we never truly block, not in my experience at least. It doesn't take an amazingly solid block to stop a punch, but instead we like to employ a brief "stop" so to speak, basically just pausing the attack with a stiff touch, but never really slowing down, and the same applies to stick fighting. I can't tell you how many times over extending on the block has gotten me into trouble.

Something I have been wondering also was how you change the angles from stick to strike. For example do how do you alter a slash into a punch?

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 5:33pm

Something I have been wondering also was how you change the angles from stick to strike. For example do how do you alter a slash into a punch?

Usually the variation comes in the delivery. The most common frame of reference my Instructor gives me is usually " This is a style created to battle the Japanese in the trenches of WW2 ". The Samurai cannot draw a long sword in a tight trench, which was the point of said trenches being dug, but you have to remember that a filipino soldier has the same limitation with swinging his machete. We like to use tight circular motions. When you employ a stick, you're hitting with the last six inches of the stick, and the motion that we like to use is similar to a punch, IE a straight thrust forward with a flick and a drag down and then back up. Try to imagine the mechanism that controls the wheels of an older locomotive. Doing it this way, it's much easier to keep up a good defense against other sticks/swords because you aren't making broad swings and you really don't need any space, and at the same time, you seem much faster because your movements are a lot closer together and again, you require less space to get about the same effect.

Your jabs turn into your hook punches, your puno (bottom of the stick beneath the fist) shots turn into your hammer fists, the uppercut is about the same as a stick jab in the way that it starts on the outside (it may've originated from a strike that was blocked or whatever else have you), and circles into the inside. The stick motion for the uppercut is like an upward jab at the throat or the chin, and needs to be much tighter when using the fist. I've also known a student who use this principal of combined hand and stick with American boxing. The right cross went past the face and the puno would hit the eye, the chin, the nose or the cheek bone. His uppercut was also a tip-down defense move that defended against angle 1 and angle 12 strikes, and his hook was much the same as his cross, only the fact that his stick was in front of him kept him safe from frontal blows AND the left handed stick or check hand was still able to do it's own work to defend or continue attacking.

**Eskrimador** · Posted On: 12/13/2011 5:38pm

The other popular saying that I hear ALL the time is " If you can't do it in a phone booth, you're over extending. " Keeping the movements tight and very close in is also a large help when changing from sticks to hands. It helps you remember not to treat the stick like a club which in turn gives you more of a "jabbing" motion for slashes and helps with striking.