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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 5:37am

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    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    The spinning around with the sword vertical, holding it in one hand, switching hands, are probably all things that sword purists would scratch their head about.
    Research Ueshiba's religious purification rituals for the answer to that practice, it has nothing what so ever to do with sword/bokuto application.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  2. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 7:25am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ho Ho Fcuk You ! View Post
    Research Ueshiba's religious purification rituals for the answer to that practice, it has nothing what so ever to do with sword/bokuto application.
    (link to misogi no jo video)
    Ellis Amdur's excellent Hidden in Plain Sight and Duelling with O Sensei are two I've read. I've dipped into some of Stanley Pranin's work too.

    Off the top of my head here are a few explantions given for some of the odd stuff:
    • It was just him "praying" by swinging a stick.
    • It's what his internal training (as in internal martial arts) looked like.
    • It's a demonstration of internal training principles.
    • It's unifying himself with the kami and earth.
    • He's showing what his teacher showed him.
    • It's crazy stuff by a crazy man.
    These aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Doing that kind of stuff without having a direct way to check it out (i.e. access to a good teacher) is about the same as doing tai-chi forms from a book.
    A lot of aikidoka will throw their hands up and say we've lost the internal in our training. This is why a lot of people look elsewhere for IT.


    Sorry for the derail Meutards.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 7:42am

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    Well, having about as much interest in Aikido now, as having my dick placed on a table and hit with a leather strap - repeatedly, I wish you good luck in your understanding of the world according to Ueshiba.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  4. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 9:09am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ho Ho Fcuk You ! View Post
    Well, having about as much interest in Aikido now, as having my dick placed on a table and hit with a leather strap - repeatedly, I wish you good luck in your understanding of the world according to Ueshiba.
    So,,, very interested then?
    I've heard enough about the Ueshiba to know that:
    1) I've no interest in seeing the world the way he did.
    2) That people who say "this is O Sensei's world view" are probably projecting.
    3) Thinking aikido training will give me teH deAdly will get me killed.
    4) Modern aikido owes a lot more to Takeda and Kisshomaru then they are generally given credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ho Ho Fcuk You ! View Post
    ,,,it has nothing what so ever to do with sword/bokuto application
    Meutards: with that in mind, what does you're instructor say the purpose of your happo is?
    Last edited by realjanuary; 12/16/2011 9:18am at . Reason: added point 4
  5. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 10:37am

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    Happo giri and Misogi are different applications entirely although Ueshiba combined them at times.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  6. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 12:42pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    purpose of happo giri: practise many angles of attack -> train your body movement
    misogi: ritual purification of yourself and/or your surroundings -> get yourself in the zone, put other people in the zone, train "internal stuff", call down the kami (YMMV)

    What do you see as their purposes?

    I wouldn't usually group them together in my mind, but with the sweeping action the OP mentioned and asking about the odd sword angle I thought it was relevent.
    The only thing called misogi I practise is a short batto that Kashima Shin Ryu practitioners would recognise as something like their misogi no tachi.
    (The aikibunny in me couldn't resist goofing with it once and doing all the permutations of changing the direction of the cuts.)
  7. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 2:46pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

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    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    Meutards: with that in mind, what does you're instructor say the purpose of your happo is?
    No worries about the derail- this is a pretty good discussion so far. I have never been intensely interested in the katana or its use, simply because I never had anyone to show me how to correctly use one. Now that I'm getting some basics, it's a good deal more interesting.

    My instructor says the happo giri is to learn the fundamentals of moving and cutting to mae, and then immediately ushiro. Cut forward, then change directions and cut to your blind spot. The spin (happo) is to clear the area you just covered to make sure there are no opponents you might have missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary
    The spinning around with the sword vertical, holding it in one hand, switching hands, are probably all things that sword purists would scratch their head about. I bet a lot of people doing it can trace the route to LARPish tendencies or Takeda, see 7:27 for Ueshiba doing some aparently ad lib happo.

    Furi kiburi / cut up, should finish with the tsuka/handle pointing at what you're going to cut. The bringing it all the way back to parallel to the spine is a habit that many, myself included, can fall into when we're using the sword for some type of exercise instead of training how to cut people.

    Ahhhhh, makes sense. The way we get to the sword being held vertical is thus: Step or shuffle (depending on the kata), and cut downward dropping the hips. Once your bokken is level with your obi and angled slightly up, the turn is initiated and the tip of the bokken should remain at the same height. Lift the handle and turn under the blade. Raise the hips and the tip of the bokken to simulate cutting right back up through the target.

    That is all to say- we are doing the exercise with the mindset of learning to cut something or someone rather than any sort of ritual purification.
  8. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 3:34pm


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    About the positioning of the bokken/shinken. What I think you are talking about is the angle one holds the sword when in jodan no kamae? If not, then disregard the following comments. We were told to hold the sword at about the angle that comes natural when the bottom (left) hand hits the forehead (not literally). So, I'd say between 30-45 degree of an angle. The thought process being that one does not need to muscle a good, sharp, sword by rounding it up all the way down your back and making a huge swing forward and down. That around the 35 degree angle is just about the right amount balance between getting that leverage for speed and not fighting yourself with wasted movement. I certainly understand that some kenjutsu ryuha totally disagree. Just saying what we were taught.

    Oh, this version of happo giri was learned from Fumio Toyoda, who was primarily a student of Kohei, but also trained under Ueshiba before the Tohei split.
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