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  1. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2011 10:29pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How do you do happo giri?

    I have recently been introduced to happo giri as part of the danzan ryu curriculum, and the on-line videos I've found to aid me in my understanding have given me a lot to ponder. One of the things I pondered was how an innocent search for examples of a kata I'm learning could turn up a Dan Bowen video (dammit, Bowen). The other thing I pondered, and the reason for the thread, is the two main types of happo giri I've seen are markedly different from one another.

    The happo giri that I'm learning is the less well-represented form- straight makko giri cuts to the top of the head performed in eight cardinal directions. The more well-represented form I'm seeing is basically static in stance, but cutting with the blade in eight different cuts (vertical, horizontal, diagonal, etc.).

    I have also noticed that even in the forms of happo giri akin to what I'm doing, almost none have what my instructor calls the happo movement- a roughly 270 to 360 turn back to shomen. They tend to simply step right back into shomen. I tried to find a happo giri ni kata, or an example of happo giri done with a close sliding step vs. a happo giri done with a wider step with no slide. I've found one or the other, but no one demonstrating both ways.

    So, for those of you who may be familiar with happo giri- how do you do it? Is it a form cutting in the eight cardinal directions, or do you face one direction and do eight various cuts? Is there a turn for you? Do you do variations on a theme? I'm really just curious, having seen all manner of things passed off as happo giri online. Some are done reasonably well, and then some are sad. Very sad. Nevertheless, I'd like to know about what other people do.
  2. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2011 9:02am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought danzan-ryu was a modern jujutsu school, you guys are doing sword stuff too in addition to the roughly one bazillion waza/kata in the curriculum?

    I don't know from happo-giri but in seitei iai, sanpo-giri and shiho-giri are cutting in three and four directions (front, sides, back) respectively.
  3. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2011 6:32pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Danzan ryu has a ton of stuff in it. Plus, the instructor is very traditional in how he teaches. He calls the few weapons we do outside of the boards (bokken, jo) and the few unarmed kata we do outside of the boards the koryu waza of the system. The older material from which a lot of jujitsu comes from. So, yeah, two main variations of happo giri, both migi and hidare (ends up being four total if you do both sides).
  4. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2011 10:42pm


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my aikido classes we do hapo giri like this:

    1. shuffle kiri otoshi (to front), cross step thrust.

    2. shift to rear, shuffle front cut, shuffle thrust.

    3. rear foot shift left, suffle cut, slide step thrust.

    4. shift to the rear, suffle cut , slide step thrust.

    5. slide step to rear left corner, shuffle cut,

    6. shift to opposite rear, shuffle cut.

    7. follow direction of rear foot toes, shuffle cut.

    8. shift, shuffle, opposite direction, cut.

    9. load, spin around, both hands on tsuka for clearing cut until facing front.

    10. spin total 360 with one hand on tuska for clearing swipe.

    11. shuffle back, chudan no kame.
  5. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2011 9:36am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    More specifically here:

    Found this old video when I was doing video review of previous technique for a test a couple years back. Nothing is quite as distressing as watching yourself do technique on video!
  6. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2011 4:45pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the Japanese like the number 8. Those three things you've identified can all be correctly called happo giri (cutting in a compass pattern, demonstrating different cuts and the hand mudras that can be found in TSKSR as well as LARPing ninjery).

    From an aikido perspective I'm most familiar with the cutting in compass points type. Even within that there are lots of possible variations. This is the one you'reI thought this vid did a decent job at summarising them: link
    Another interesting "8 directions cut" is the kata found in the Chiba sensei / Birankai lineage. I spent a summer away from my main teacher and that was the core of my solo practise for some time.

    There are different things with the same name, and things with the same name that are different.
  7. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2011 6:03pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Muerteds please don't change the font of your posts unless it's to make a specific distinction.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  8. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 1:43am


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Daishi- thanks for your video and description. That's a bit like a combination of the two basic forms of happo giri that we do with the stepping and shuffling. Your form is the only other one that I've seen with a sweeping turn, though yours is a double spin. I know it's rough to put yourself on video for criticism. Self-criticism is the hardest.

    RealJanuary- I had seen the video you linked. Yes, the Japanese (and Chinese, and Thai, and....) all have a big thing for 8. That video was interesting for the various ways he incorporated combos into the happo giri. I liked it. My instructor calls the thrusting version happo tsuki. But, yes, you can definitely see where you could do standard straight down cuts, thrusts, and all angles of attack throughout the moving happo giri.

    One thing I've noticed about most examples I've seen is that I have been told to hold the bokken (or blade) almost vertically, angled slightly to the rear, and that many hold the bokken a lot farther back. The gentleman in that last video had his running straight down his spine before pulling it up to strike. I was told that I shouldn't hold the weapon farther back to as to prevent an opponent from being able to block it in the down position. I wondered if anyone else had heard that explanation.

    At some point in the near future I should record happo giri and happo giri ni kata in migi and hidare, just to give a reference of what I'm going on about.
  9. Rock Ape is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 4:47am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I won't ask again.

    Leave your font option set at the default.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/16/2011 5:24am


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Muerteds View Post
    Daishi- thanks for your video and description. That's a bit like a combination of the two basic forms of happo giri that we do with the stepping and shuffling. Your form is the only other one that I've seen with a sweeping turn, though yours is a double spin. I know it's rough to put yourself on video for criticism. Self-criticism is the hardest.

    RealJanuary- I had seen the video you linked. Yes, the Japanese (and Chinese, and Thai, and....) all have a big thing for 8. That video was interesting for the various ways he incorporated combos into the happo giri. I liked it. My instructor calls the thrusting version happo tsuki. But, yes, you can definitely see where you could do standard straight down cuts, thrusts, and all angles of attack throughout the moving happo giri.

    One thing I've noticed about most examples I've seen is that I have been told to hold the bokken (or blade) almost vertically, angled slightly to the rear, and that many hold the bokken a lot farther back. The gentleman in that last video had his running straight down his spine before pulling it up to strike. I was told that I shouldn't hold the weapon farther back to as to prevent an opponent from being able to block it in the down position. I wondered if anyone else had heard that explanation.

    At some point in the near future I should record happo giri and happo giri ni kata in migi and hidare, just to give a reference of what I'm going on about.
    The spinning around with the sword vertical, holding it in one hand, switching hands, are probably all things that sword purists would scratch their head about. I bet a lot of people doing it can trace the route to LARPish tendencies or Takeda, see 7:27 for Ueshiba doing some aparently ad lib happo.

    Furi kiburi / cut up, should finish with the tsuka/handle pointing at what you're going to cut. The bringing it all the way back to parallel to the spine is a habit that many, myself included, can fall into when we're using the sword for some type of exercise instead of training how to cut people.
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