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  1. Cayvmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 2:38pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    So, counterpoint is that gymnasts who've never touched a barbell in their live can typically pull greater than double bw the first time they're called to deadlift.

    The counter to that counterpoint is that training like a competitive gymnast is a fuckload harder than just doing starting strength for 9 months, so maybe you should pick the easy way toward that goal.
    Which gymnasts? All of them? Pshaw
  2. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 2:46pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

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    I'll see if i can dig up the studies, but if I remember correctly yeah, most nationally competitive gymnasts should be able to do it. But men's gynastics is primarily a strength and power sport so, y'know, big fucking surprise.
  3. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 4:48pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    EDIT: I know you like to do bodyweight exercises, and I know you don't have access to gym equipment as you posted earlier; I don't disagree with bodyweight training as a method, I simply don't agree that it is sufficient to make you as strong as somebody with an equally comprehensive routine, but uses weights instead. There really is no reason for this discussion to continue unless you're going to refute that one point.
    Ok you make good points and wont debate anymore on this, but do at least acknowledge the specificity component of strength. If the top bench presser in the world could work with you one on one for a day and improve your technique is it possible for you to add some more weight to your max PR or 5 rep max even though in this short time you have not gotten stronger? The best powerlifter in the world could he come in straight away and win one of these strong man competitions lifting atlas stones and pulling trucks if he has not trained in these things? They obviously require different technique to the 3 big lifts, but also different muscle recruitment patterns. This is what I am getting at by saying strength is a skill and also why I find it hard to say one strength athlete is stronger than the other when they compete in different sports.
  4. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2011 5:10pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can't edit spelling and grammar in above post, likely my crappy internet connection.
  5. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2011 9:39am

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    So, counterpoint is that gymnasts who've never touched a barbell in their live can typically pull greater than double bw the first time they're called to deadlift.

    The counter to that counterpoint is that training like a competitive gymnast is a fuckload harder than just doing starting strength for 9 months, so maybe you should pick the easy way toward that goal.
    That's not a counterpoint unless he can outlift the powerlifter of equal competitive standing, which he won't be able to.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  6. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2011 9:47am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    Ok you make good points and wont debate anymore on this, but do at least acknowledge the specificity component of strength. If the top bench presser in the world could work with you one on one for a day and improve your technique is it possible for you to add some more weight to your max PR or 5 rep max even though in this short time you have not gotten stronger? The best powerlifter in the world could he come in straight away and win one of these strong man competitions lifting atlas stones and pulling trucks if he has not trained in these things? They obviously require different technique to the 3 big lifts, but also different muscle recruitment patterns. This is what I am getting at by saying strength is a skill and also why I find it hard to say one strength athlete is stronger than the other when they compete in different sports.
    The reason for people doing the 'big three' lifts is because it is a relatively narrow focus in exercises, and yet gives a very wide gain in applicable strength. The big three at a non-competitive powerlifting level are not entirely specific to their niche simply because they're compound movements which are near-replicated in everyday life.

    Obviously at high competitive level you get things like squat suits and bench shirts, as well as finely tuned technique which arguably make the movement more specific, but even then the applicability of their strength is still massive, and no worse than bodyweight training.

    Of course, strength in itself is a skill in the sense it is primarily neuromuscular coordination; however when you start comparing sports you start bringing their sport-specific skills into it, which retards the comparison. Outside of their sport, if you put a gymnast and a powerlifter into a strongman competition (chosen because of the deliberate non-specificity of the movements involved) logic says the guy who spends his time lifting weights heavier than himself has the advantage.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
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  7. Cayvmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2011 2:18pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    I'll see if i can dig up the studies, but if I remember correctly yeah, most nationally competitive gymnasts should be able to do it. But men's gynastics is primarily a strength and power sport so, y'know, big fucking surprise.
    There's also a general disparity in the strength, when comparing upper to lower body strength. Usually much stronger in the upper body. Leg strength tends to add to their weight, and throws off their balance in all but the floor exercises.

    The gymnasts I knew in college tried very hard not to gain leg weight at all. Just enough exercise to do a floor run, usually. ( college was 20 years ago, and I haven't kept up with the state of the art in athletic performance. It surely may be different now )

    article from t-nation, apparently they still don't want to gain much leg size but do some weight training for leg:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...AA-mcd01.hydra
    Last edited by Cayvmann; 12/21/2011 2:22pm at . Reason: add info
  8. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2011 5:13pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    The reason for people doing the 'big three' lifts is because it is a relatively narrow focus in exercises, and yet gives a very wide gain in applicable strength. The big three at a non-competitive powerlifting level are not entirely specific to their niche simply because they're compound movements which are near-replicated in everyday life.

    Of course, strength in itself is a skill in the sense it is primarily neuromuscular coordination; however when you start comparing sports you start bringing their sport-specific skills into it, which retards the comparison. Outside of their sport, if you put a gymnast and a powerlifter into a strongman competition (chosen because of the deliberate non-specificity of the movements involved) logic says the guy who spends his time lifting weights heavier than himself has the advantage.
    Yes, so you acknowledge the skill component.

    The big three lifts are compound movements that have a wide carryover of strength as you have said. This is also true of bodyweight exercises, hence the strength carryover to weights in that T-nation article and by default many other strength endeavors. A guy with substantial leg mass will find it extremely difficult to do lever type movements which is why the gymnast will avoid this. It would be interesting to see what Sommer's athletes would be able to barbell squat.
  9. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2011 6:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    Yes, so you acknowledge the skill component.

    The big three lifts are compound movements that have a wide carryover of strength as you have said. This is also true of bodyweight exercises, hence the strength carryover to weights in that T-nation article and by default many other strength endeavors. A guy with substantial leg mass will find it extremely difficult to do lever type movements which is why the gymnast will avoid this. It would be interesting to see what Sommer's athletes would be able to barbell squat.
    I did implicitly acknowledge that bodyweight exercises would have similar carryover in a sense, by saying that the carryover from weights is no worse.

    That being said, something I found interesting in one study that I will endeavour to dig up, is that on a smith machine, sprinters were capable of squatting as much as powerlifters IIRC. This of course ignores the wider skill component of the lift exclusive to the powerlifters, but interesting nontheless.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". - Cus D'Amato
    Spoiler:

  10. Cayvmann is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2011 9:09am


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    That being said, something I found interesting in one study that I will endeavour to dig up, is that on a smith machine, sprinters were capable of squatting as much as powerlifters IIRC. This of course ignores the wider skill component of the lift exclusive to the powerlifters, but interesting nontheless.
    It's not surprising that sprinters have powerful lower bodies. Upper even. I was under the impression that sprinters did a good amount of weight training to develop their legs, Even squats.

    As far as comparing to powerlifters, are you talking about competitive powerlifters and comparing weight classes? I would still have my doubts.
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